Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider Appreciation 2018

[Pav]

Totally random thought:

What if PAD writes a relaunch of Slingers with Ben as a central antagonist?

I'd read that.

-Pav, who wonders what Dusk will make of him...

[Huntsman Spider]

Totally random thought:

What if PAD writes a relaunch of Slingers with Ben as a central antagonist?

I'd read that.

-Pav, who wonders what Dusk will make of him...

You wouldn't necessarily be alone, but that's a lot of goodwill casually burned off by PAD by the ending of this series. Not sure people would be as willing to give him another shot after that.

[Orbus]

This.

The book failed spectacularly because old school fans could not get over the colossal character assassination of Clone Conspiracy, and new fans had no reason to support him.

This Ben started off as a Machiavellian schemer who had betrayed everything the original Ben and Peter stood for. He was depicted as someone so uncompromisingly slimy that there was no chance any fresh reader would back him for the first time. I liked a lot of the ideas Peter David used in this, but for me this title would have simply benefited more being a relaunch for Kane and not Ben.

You could take every 90s clone saga fan still buying monthly books and it wouldn't make big sales. Spider-Man in a hoodie is not going to hook people in in 2018, the book needed a hook and bringing back Ben as a villain and then spinning him off into a book were he seeks redemption is one that has a proven track record of working for similar characters. I know you have a very strong dislike for Dan Slott and we can debate the merits of The Clone Conspiracy as a story but the premise for a Ben Reilly book was solid.

To be fair PAD did not fumble the ball so much as he worked an entirely different play to what fans and I suspect even Marvel wanted out a Ben Reilly relaunch. Ben was broken be his experiences portrayed in the Clone Conspiracy (being repeatedly killed and resurrected) but still wanted to do good in his waped own way and seeing it all blow up in his face realized that wasn't the way. This left the wide open for any kind of characterization PAD wanted. What fans assumed we'd get was a damaged Ben trying to redeem himself. What we got was what if Spider-Man was a complete jerk and insane and amoral (charging victims of crime to rescued, working with gangsters, lying about having a cure for a sick child).

What we should have seen was him being more harsher with criminals particularly those endangering lives (since he had a thing about death), less social but over several arcs gain new friendships and relationships which help to soften him so he becomes more like the Ben Reilly of old. Cliched but it works.

What we got was big cosmic story lines about the fate of Ben's soul. I know that fans loved when Death healed his scars and took away his insanity because they thought it was an insta-fix but he still acted like a jerk at times but it also set the template of all these dark cosmic forces playing with Ben. I get that PAD was trying to be meta and show how the character is subject to the whims of the higher powers but what does any of that have to do with Ben Reilly?

It might have been been palletable for longtime readers if he'd mixed in some classic characters. Janine is generally regarded as Ben's #1 interest and as someone who took a dark path herself she could have been a good character to have around. Instead we got a lot of callbacks to PAD's previous work and even bizarrely the Slingers who got a comeback that built on their last story.

[boots]

yikes, the elitism.

yeah? i mean...people like different stuff.

thinking that you have the ""right taste" and anyone who disagrees is young without critical faculties...doesn't sound like critical thinking at all.

[Captain Craig]

Renew Your Vows lasted almost the same number of issues, but always outsold Scarlet Spider. Hell it even outsold Spider-Gwen and Miles at one point. Scarlet stayed below of all of them consistently.

I stand by my statement.
25 issues isn't a failure in today's market.
I have no interest in bickering about other Spidey books and their sales. At the end of the day Marvel got issues to make trades maybe even an Omni, who knows what the future holds.

[boots]

That's a pretty ignorant statement from PAD. Personally, I trade-wait because trades are a more reader-friendly format than standard comics, which I have to pull out of storage/protection and then handle carefully to prevent damage. Trades I can just grab straight off of my shelf and read.

But I guess it's easier to blame trade-waiters than just admit that maybe the story and/or artwork is lacking.

agreed. PAD shouldn't be blaming the consumer for choosing the options that best suit them.

blame a business/production model that is out of touch

[boots]

Totally random thought:

What if PAD writes a relaunch of Slingers with Ben as a central antagonist?

I'd read that.

-Pav, who wonders what Dusk will make of him...

i love you pav. i don't love the slingers
i really don't think the answer to ben's failure to capture a market is in a team book or making him one half of a duo. but maybe i'm not the target audience?

[Celgress]

I think another problem with Ben's return run was that previously Ben was the single Spider-Man if you will whereas Peter was the married Spider-Man. Thanks to those in the Marvel Office the slot of single Spidey who is still finding his way is no longer open to Ben nor is young relatively inexperienced Spider-Man (Miles says hello) or even brutal anti-hero Spider-Man (Otto says hi). Really, what role is there left for Ben to fill other than maybe villainous Spider-Man (which didn't work)?

[boots]

I think another problem with Ben's return run was that previously Ben was the single Spider-Man if you will whereas Peter was the married Spider-Man. Thanks to those in the Marvel Office the slot of single Spidey who is still finding his way is no longer open to Ben nor is young relatively inexperienced Spider-Man (Miles says hello) or even brutal anti-hero Spider-Man (Otto says hi). Really, what role is there left for Ben to fill other than maybe villainous Spider-Man (which didn't work)?

its a good point, other than nostalgia...what space can ben occupy that hasn't ben filled by peter, kaine or miles?

[ZeroBG82]

Totally random thought:

What if PAD writes a relaunch of Slingers with Ben as a central antagonist?

I'd read that.

-Pav, who wonders what Dusk will make of him...

Never. Not if it was the last comic in the universe.

The Slingers need to go away and never, ever come back.

[Celgress]

its a good point, other than nostalgia...what space can ben occupy that hasn't ben filled by peter, kaine or miles?

Hmmm, maybe send him to another country like Japan for example (he could tangle with the Hand or the Yakuza)? He could be the out of his element trying to find himself and his place in the world Spider-Man. I think placing Ben outside North America for a fresh start might help recapture what many people found so endearing about the character his journey of self-discovery. Also, we don't get to see much of Earth 616 other than North America very often so that would be an added bonus.

[boots]

Hmmm, maybe send him to another country like Japan for example (he could tangle with the Hand or the Yakuza)? He could be the out of his element trying to find himself and his place in the world Spider-Man. I think placing Ben outside North America for a fresh start might help recapture what many people found so endearing about the character his journey of self-discovery. Also, we don't get to see much of Earth 616 other than North America very often so that would be an added bonus.

yeah, back in the day when i was dabbling in fanfic, that was my solution- ben would just go back to a "lost years" status quo and be a nomad. almost preacher but without the ...yucky bits.

so obviously, i think that idea has legs. but these days i wonder if thats enough?

i suppose what could work with ben is the spider-man you can experiment with. obviously making him eeevil is too far, but all those stories writers would love to try with peter but can't because of "illusion of change"...maybe they could run wild with ben?

[Celgress]

....i suppose what could work with ben is the spider-man you can experiment with. obviously making him eeevil is too far, but all those stories writers would love to try with peter but can't because of "illusion of change"...maybe they could run wild with ben?

Edit -

That would certainly work. Things you could do with Ben; give him an office job to make ends meet in the new country so he has to juggle his time, have him maybe take in a runaway with a secret of his or her own, he could get caught up with a group of violent vigilantes who take things to far and try to reign them in, the possibilities are endless. Either way, I do agree with you in so far as making him an outright villain went too far.

[boots]

That would certainly work. Things you could do with Ben; give him an office job to make ends meet in the new country so he has to juggle his time, have him maybe take in a run away with a secret of his or her own, the possibilities are endless.

yeah...taking in a runaway...adopting someone...all that stuff. peter can't touch.

y'know...the whole thing ben had going on in clone conspiracy, where he was basically trying (and failing) to fix all of his peter's past mistakes?
maybe there's something there?

maybe ben becomes obsessed with tying up the loose ends and plot holes from his and peter's lives? the stuff that peter had to let go because of his life responsibilities- ben, without attachments, could pursue those things to the ends of the earth.

[Celgress]

yeah...taking in a runaway...adopting someone...all that stuff. peter can't touch.

y'know...the whole thing ben had going on in clone conspiracy, where he was basically trying (and failing) to fix all of his peter's past mistakes?
maybe there's something there?

maybe ben becomes obsessed with tying up the loose ends and plot holes from his and peter's lives? the stuff that peter had to let go because of his life responsibilities- ben, without attachments, could pursue those things to the ends of the earth.

Exactly, have Ben do the things Peter can't.

The whole tying up loose ends is another great idea.