Could the Flashpoint reboot have been avoided?

[superduperman]

Also, consider that a number of events/titles pre-Flashpoint were not headed towards a reboot. Johns was building something up with his run on the Flash, Generation Lost was building to something as well, Johns and Lee were discussing JL, and Brightest Day had taken roughly a year to revamp Aquaman and a few other characters. Why do this if a reboot was something long in the works?

I think the editorial mayhem and continuity problems of the first year or so of the New 52 (made easier to swallow with the 5 years later conceit) are solid evidence that A) Flashpoint was never meant to be a Crisis event and B) someone somewhere (I still think it was the WB) mandated a full reboot as quickly as possible.

DiDio also revealed a few months back that the plan was to reboot after Infinite Crisis, but that the idea was pushed back. The fact that much was done to bring Barry Allen back (not long after Hal and Ollie had returned) leads me to believe the Johns/Lee planned title was going to involve the original Big 7. Why bring back all these Silver Age characters and concepts, rejuvenate them, and then toss it all away with a reboot?

If you go back and look at some of the books prior to the reboot, some of them seemed to anticipate that they were coming to an end (such as the "soft" reboot of WW and the killing of Alan Scott in JSA) while others seemed to just end abruptly. Others are kind of toss ups. Grounded reads like someone out of ideas who is just killing time knowing they are coming to an end. But the Reign of the Doomsdays reads like it was meant to be a regular storyline. I have the last Power Girl issue before the reboot and it clearly ended in the middle of a storyline that was meant to keep going. I can only guess there are a number of titles for which this is true. The whole suggests this was dropped in a lot of people's laps without warning.

[Lee Stone]

Also, consider that a number of events/titles pre-Flashpoint were not headed towards a reboot. Johns was building something up with his run on the Flash, Generation Lost was building to something as well, Johns and Lee were discussing JL, and Brightest Day had taken roughly a year to revamp Aquaman and a few other characters. Why do this if a reboot was something long in the works?

I think the editorial mayhem and continuity problems of the first year or so of the New 52 (made easier to swallow with the 5 years later conceit) are solid evidence that A) Flashpoint was never meant to be a Crisis event and B) someone somewhere (I still think it was the WB) mandated a full reboot as quickly as possible.

DiDio also revealed a few months back that the plan was to reboot after Infinite Crisis, but that the idea was pushed back. The fact that much was done to bring Barry Allen back (not long after Hal and Ollie had returned) leads me to believe the Johns/Lee planned title was going to involve the original Big 7. Why bring back all these Silver Age characters and concepts, rejuvenate them, and then toss it all away with a reboot?

I agree with everything you've said. Especially Generation Lost and Brightest Day.
And digital could have easily have started on the month where all the titles had logo covers earlier that year.

And then there's the quote from Didio about a year or year and a half before New52 where he said DC would not be rebooting.
So yeah... the reboot was not in any way, shape or form planned.

[Frontier]

And I doubt Johns, even as the writer of Flashpoint, had much involvement with the Reboot aside from being told to write what set it off, and maybe being one of the architects of how Earth-0 would look considering how much he loves DC's history and continuity. I recall him posting online about how he missed writing the JSA and that they're not the same without the history they had in the old continuity. He may have used the New 52 to revamp a lot of characters, but I don't think he would have preferred that over sticking with the Post-Crisis continuity.

I recognize now that the New 52 reboot helped DC financially quite a bit, though I also have to wonder if they had just relaunched all their books and kept the same continuity but with strong creative teams, that maybe that would've worked out just as well...at least that's the sense I'm getting after hearing about these rumors about what the DC lineup post-Flashpoint might have been intended to be before the edict came for the reboot. As much as I complain about it from Marvel, they seem to think that kind of approach works well.

[GlennSimpson]

And I doubt Johns, even as the writer of Flashpoint, had much involvement with the Reboot aside from being told to write what set it off, and maybe being one of the architects of how Earth-0 would look considering how much he loves DC's history and continuity. I recall him posting online about how he missed writing the JSA and that they're not the same without the history they had in the old continuity. He may have used the New 52 to revamp a lot of characters, but I don't think he would have preferred that over sticking with the Post-Crisis continuity.

I recognize now that the New 52 reboot helped DC financially quite a bit, though I also have to wonder if they had just relaunched all their books and kept the same continuity but with strong creative teams, that maybe that would've worked out just as well...at least that's the sense I'm getting after hearing about these rumors about what the DC lineup post-Flashpoint might have been intended to be before the edict came for the reboot. As much as I complain about it from Marvel, they seem to think that kind of approach works well.

DC had tried that sort of thing with like Brightest Day but didn't really see much come out of it.

Worth mentioning that Marvel's sales are generally higher than DC's. So something that generates a 5% increase for DC isn't as big a deal as something that generates a 5% increase for Marvel. DC has to do bigger bolder things to get readers' attention away from Marvel.

[Jim Kelly]

The new 52 was a desperate Hall Mary pass to get a dramatic boost in sales. I'm guessing that Dan Didio needed to do this to save his job. He had to prove to his new bosses that he could bring up DC numbers or he probably would've been toast.

But I still wish he had kept the original numbering for DETECTIVE and ACTION. Just those two and that would've been enough for me to stick with DC. They could've made both of these weekly titles--DC has done weeklies before and these two titles featured DC's top two characters and if they were the keystone to the whole new 52 then I think they would have banked good enough sales. They could've sold them as a Count-Up to One Thousand. Once both titles hit that magic number (in less than two years), they could have started over with new number 1s and I wouldn't have minded--but I've been buying DC for most of my life to see those two titles hit that number and I was hoping to be alive to see it. Doesn't give me much to live for now.

[superduperman]

The new 52 was a desperate Hall Mary pass to get a dramatic boost in sales. I'm guessing that Dan Didio needed to do this to save his job. He had to prove to his new bosses that he could bring up DC numbers or he probably would've been toast.

But I still wish he had kept the original numbering for DETECTIVE and ACTION. Just those two and that would've been enough for me to stick with DC. They could've made both of these weekly titles--DC has done weeklies before and these two titles featured DC's top two characters and if they were the keystone to the whole new 52 then I think they would have banked good enough sales. They could've sold them as a Count-Up to One Thousand. Once both titles hit that magic number (in less than two years), they could have started over with new number 1s and I wouldn't have minded--but I've been buying DC for most of my life to see those two titles hit that number and I was hoping to be alive to see it. Doesn't give me much to live for now.

I think there are legitimate questions as to how much Didio's arm was twisted by corporate. Did they force a hard reboot or did they just say "Get the numbers up or you're fired!" and the hard reboot was the only way he could think to do it? The question of whose idea was it is one that we may never know barring someone from up top just coming out and saying so.

[The S0/\/\@7ic Si/\/\[]Dl370n]

Disney should also do something with Mickey Mouse. When was that character last used in anything?

They're doing stuff with Mickey right now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Mouse_(TV_series)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...8UJ4hErx3D7qt8

Probably the most awesome Mickey-related thing in decades.

[The Darknight Detective]

As was the case with COIE, Flashpoint could have been avoided if DC sales had been comparable to Marvel's.

[confusiongrows]

As was the case with COIE, Flashpoint could have been avoided if DC sales had been comparable to Marvel's.

And hopefully DC has now realised that is not going to happen now. Why? Two words: Star Wars.

Marvel has taken the Star Wars comics which were only mildly successful at Dark Horse and turned them into megahits which are probably going to be at least as important to Marvel as the Spider-Man books for a good while, unless Disney kills Star Wars through a string of bad movies, which I don't foresee. DC has only one IP in that league and that's Batman, maybe Justice League at a pinch. Unless DC can make one or two other books sell in that ballpark they're not going to get close. Building up the Superman family books would be a start.

[GlennSimpson]

I think there are legitimate questions as to how much Didio's arm was twisted by corporate. Did they force a hard reboot or did they just say "Get the numbers up or you're fired!" and the hard reboot was the only way he could think to do it? The question of whose idea was it is one that we may never know barring someone from up top just coming out and saying so.

I could be wrong but I would assume the specific strategy for upping sales - the reboot - was Didio's idea. I can't imagine suits at a higher level at WB getting into the particulars of what sorts of things grow sales dramatically in the comic book world. Not sure what difference that makes - I can't imagine anything else they could have done to get that level of attention and interest.

[manofsteel1979]

The new 52 was a desperate Hall Mary pass to get a dramatic boost in sales. I'm guessing that Dan Didio needed to do this to save his job. He had to prove to his new bosses that he could bring up DC numbers or he probably would've been toast.

But I still wish he had kept the original numbering for DETECTIVE and ACTION. Just those two and that would've been enough for me to stick with DC. They could've made both of these weekly titles--DC has done weeklies before and these two titles featured DC's top two characters and if they were the keystone to the whole new 52 then I think they would have banked good enough sales. They could've sold them as a Count-Up to One Thousand. Once both titles hit that magic number (in less than two years), they could have started over with new number 1s and I wouldn't have minded--but I've been buying DC for most of my life to see those two titles hit that number and I was hoping to be alive to see it. Doesn't give me much to live for now.

I wish this was the case too, but I guess the argument at the time that DC wanted to show the suits at Warners they were serious, so there were no "sacred cows" for them, for better or worse. I happen to think for those two books they could have continued the numbering in print while starting them out at new #1's on the digital side...but that's neither here or there.

Also, you can bet that when those titles get to the 1000th issue published, they will tout those in a huge way, similar to how Marvel will bring back the old numbering for renumbered series with old titles. It was already done for what would have been DETECTIVE #900.I agree it won't be the same as if they had just continued naturally, but you can bet that WB won't resist the publishing of a Superman or Batman comic touting 1,000 issues. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised that from then on they may continue the numbering from that going forward, but appearing as something like. "#1001" on the cover, attempting to have their cake and eat it too.

[manofsteel1979]

As for if it could have been avoided...yes...it could have...had the people in charge had made smarter choices after INFINITE CRISIS. When your flagship character-namely Superman- who was starting to have a muddled continuity before IC-has an even more muddled one afterwards...well you have a problem.The powers that be thought the answer was taking Pre-Crisis/Post-Crisis and Donner-verse, smushing them all together, saying it all counts, essentially creating a multiple choice origin for Superman with no attempt for clarification...among other issues. At the time I thought it was a good idea...but looking back, Superman either needed the type of reboot he got with the New 52, or DC picking either the Pre-Crisis Superman or the Post-Crisis template and continuity for Superman and go from there. In fact for all the criticism DiDio has gotten for "not listening to fans" or "ignoring this fanbase or that" well...post IC, DiDio and co tried in a way to please both fans of the Pre and Post COIE eras across the whole line continuity wise...and well, it became a huge, ungodly, sloppy top heavy mess that was collapsing under it's own weight, basically pleasing no one ultimately and driving away readers.

By 2011, it was too late and something drastic needed to be done. Could a mere renumbering, with all star creative teams and a digital push combined with a softer reboot (like maybe a little tweaking to Superman that uncluttered his history) worked the same? I used to think It would have, but given the facts that have come out since, I'm not so sure. Heck for all we know, that could have been the original plan, but WB could have demanded more of a clean slate at the 11th hour. Remember the confusion for the status of the Titans ,and the early interviews by Lobdell for the SUPERBOY series where he said that his series would continue from the previous continuity for Kon-El .Bob Wayne was going around to retailers stressing that the New 52 was a relaunch and NOT a reboot.


That all seemed to suddenly change just before the books hit the stands. The narrative from Wayne started to suggest a Semi-reboot at the very least. Not to mention the stories that some creators who were working on those books didn't know they were necessarily working on a line wide reboot until it was announced, and many were having their scripts rewritten by editorial without notice, and even artwork being redone at the last minute to reflect the newer looks. The early previews of SUPERMAN #1 showing a more traditional Clark Kent with neater hair and an older physical appearance than what was printed, and the obvious art changes to Superman's costume in the first issue of SWAMP THING (one panel showing Supes from the distance very obviously shows him in the classic suit, but was recolored in the hopes no one would notice) stick out in my mind. Very curious indeed.

[Jim Kelly]

Also, you can bet that when those titles get to the 1000th issue published, they will tout those in a huge way, similar to how Marvel will bring back the old numbering for renumbered series with old titles. It was already done for what would have been DETECTIVE #900.I agree it won't be the same as if they had just continued naturally, but you can bet that WB won't resist the publishing of a Superman or Batman comic touting 1,000 issues. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised that from then on they may continue the numbering from that going forward, but appearing as something like. "#1001" on the cover, attempting to have their cake and eat it too.

Yeah, the publishers just don't get it. Sure, part of the thrill is getting the actual milestone number, but it's also about following the title every month leading up to those issues. The excitement I got when I had issue 294 or 584 in my hand and I knew that this title was going to hit a big number soon. It was about getting all those issues that built up to the milestone. Which really worked in DC's favour--because it meant that readers like me were faithful to their titles every month and not just when some big event comic came out.

[Sandy Hausler]

Many fans are obviously still unhappy with the New52 reboot and I understand why but from a financial standpoint, it was what DC thought was their best option at the time. That having been said, is there any way they could have avoided it? If so, what? What other options did DC have besides a hard reboot that could have boosted sales?

No reboot is necessary. There had been no reboots at all until the Crisis and while the Crisis caused certain continuity problems, there was no NECESSITY of another reboot. At bottom, reboots are for comic book fans, who buy them. It does not, to the best of my knowledge, increase sales from people who did not previously buy comics.

Sandy Hausler

[Nomads1]

Honestly, yeah, it could have been avoided. It was an editorial mandate. I have nothing against shaking things up a bit and giving a fresh injection of creative juices into the propreties. POST COIE is, IMHO, the true creative golden age of DC. IMHO, COIE was needed to set character with decades long history into a new narrative style, that was more mature and grouned and with which the campness of the silver age and eearly bronze age really didn't mesh well. For that, it was necessary to re-set a whole lot of things, and the reboot was, for the most, well done (although there were quite a few hic-ups).
Now, I don't think there was a need to adapt once again the narrative style of the stories, and I truly think they jumped on the wrong wagon by making DC an Extreme 90's style of company (two decades later and too late). Also, depite claiming that they were going to have a more diversive line-up of books, in term of tone and narrative style, the New 52 DCU is really quite limited. While the Post COIE DCU tried out with a lot of new things, narratively speaking such as humor, horror, wierdness, cosmic, mature, espionage, global politics, and so on, THE New 52 seemed really limited to black Ops with some wierd side of gore. Instead of enhancing what makes each book and character differtent and unique, they seemed intent in making them all alike. As such, IMHO, the New 52 fast become very boring and unimaginative. Also, the pick and chose of what would be retconned and what wouldn't really made for a confusing read.
So, after extending myself so much, If I had to answer the OP question, Could the Flashpoint reboot have been avoided? I guess the answer is yes. As for if it should have been avoided, I'm not sure, but I do think it should have been done differently.

Peace