Can Jean & Emma Be Friends?

[Ulfhammer]

It's kind of hard to debate how much of an influence Jean would have over Scott's behavior because first you need to ask whether Jean would be the host of the PF or not, and the answer changes the plots considerably.

I'm talking about the breadth of Jean's influence over Scott in general over the entire length of their association contrasted with the same view of Emma. The PF of course introduces an uncontrollable element into the equation which we can't really make any intelligent guesses about which is why I ignored it.

[ExodusCloak]

None of that even attempts to deny Emma's influence over Scott, and therefore over the general direction of the franchise for the last 15 years.

Let's take it down to it's most basic level. Let's assume that Scott controlled the overall direction of the X-Men since Astonishing. Are you really suggesting that Emma and Jean could have been substituted interchangeably in those years without there being any impact on how Scott led or the outcomes of those decision? Of course there would because they would be advocating for completely different approaches. What may be acceptable to one simply isn't to the other. I think both characters are developed enough for those differences to be clear.

As for Jean stopping him, perhaps that's overstated. I don't recall significant points of difference in their approaches over the years they were together. That feeds into the overall narrative I'm describing. Because Jean was a moderating force, Scott was more moderate and more likely to be open to convincing. Because Emma was a more pragmatic and assertive force, Scott became more pragmatic and assertive including being less likely to compromise, including with her. It's all connected.

Oh it does. Because Emma played no part in the decisions Scott made when he walked that descent into "darkness". She was unaware of X-force from Messiah Complex to Dark Reign.

The years before Messiah Complex the X-Men still operated the same.

Also I forgot Cable. Cable, Wolverine, Emma operate the same way.

Wolverine did the bad things so no other X-Men would have to. Eventually all that happened was Cyclops finally took responsibility instead of off loading his complicated decisions to Wolverine

[Ulfhammer]

Oh it does. Because Emma played no part in the decisions Scott made when he walked that descent into "darkness". She was unaware of X-force from Messiah Complex to Dark Reign.

The years before Messiah Complex the X-Men still operated the same.

Also I forgot Cable. Cable, Wolverine, Emma operate the same way.

Wolverine did the bad things so no other X-Men would have to. Eventually all that happened was Cyclops finally took responsibility instead of off loading his complicated decisions to Wolverine

You're ignoring my point which is that Scott's mode of thinking had already been influenced by Emma before the decisions in question even arose.

Frankly I'm shocked that you think Emma and Jean were interchangeable and their presence or absence alternatively would have had no impact, including on the course the X-Men took. In my opinion that does both of these characters a huge disservice and trivializes their differences to the point of being cardboard cutouts.

[Omega Alpha]

I'm talking about the breadth of Jean's influence over Scott in general over the entire length of their association contrasted with the same view of Emma. The PF of course introduces an uncontrollable element into the equation which we can't really make any intelligent guesses about which is why I ignored it.

Yeah, but it's ultimately pointless, isn't it? If Jean is around and has the Phoenix, half the stories don't happen. If she's around, but doesn't, either Morrison's run doesn't happen at all the way it did, and it's an entirely different story, or she loses for some reason afterwards, still we'd have some time with her as the Phoenix that would have influenced her thinking, and Scott's view of her.

[ExodusCloak]

You're ignoring my point which is that Scott's mode of thinking had already been influenced by Emma before the decisions in question even arose.

Frankly I'm shocked that you think Emma and Jean were interchangeable and their presence or absence alternatively would have had no impact, including on the course the X-Men took. In my opinion that does both of these characters a huge disservice and trivializes their differences to the point of being cardboard cutouts.

Scott's mode of decision making? You seem to be ignoring that there was a period between Morrison and Messiah Complex where Scott was still making decisions the way he did pre Morrison.

I don't think they're interchangeable. I think you're not giving Scott enough credit. He even went out of his way to distance himself from Emma as shown in Dark X-men the confessions as he knew the other X-Men would blame her for his decisions which were his own. And he didn't want that.

Scott changed Emma. She was fairly heroic during that tenure why he immersed himself in darkness

Also Emma stepped back during this period after the Torn/Cassandra Nova thing. So they went from co leaders to Scott as defects leader

So arguably it's the opposite her stepping back is what lead him to go down that path alone

[spirit2011]

Jean has already other characters trying to leech her, in fact Emma has done so for more than a decade.
They don't need to be friends or exist at the same space-time. Everything will be better if they don't even ever talk again to each other.

Sometimes I really think Emma entire reason d'entre on x-men is being the anti-Jean and then stealing Jean place.
I read kelly Thomppson favorite female characters list and when she list reasons to like Emma is basically a "she is the opposite of Jean". Pretty tiresome

[PsychoEFrost]

Sometimes I really think Emma entire reason d'entre on x-men is being the anti-Jean and then stealing Jean place.
I read kelly Thomppson favorite female characters list and when she list reasons to like Emma is basically a "she is the opposite of Jean". Pretty tiresome

Yes, we know. Any creator who doesn't absolutely despise Emma is worthless in your eyes.

[spirit2011]

Yes, we know. Any creator who doesn't absolutely despise Emma is worthless in your eyes.

This time I'm right to criticize a writers. *many times I was right to criticize writers fanboysm*
Jean was sacrificed to EMma could prosper and all they do is screw over jean

[PsychoEFrost]

This time I'm right to criticize a writers. *many times I was right to criticize writers fanboysm*
Jean was sacrificed to EMma could prosper and all they do is screw over jean

At some point, you're gonna need to let that go. You can't let one single moment in time 15 years ago to your favorite fictional character control you this much.

[Ulfhammer]

Yeah, but it's ultimately pointless, isn't it? If Jean is around and has the Phoenix, half the stories don't happen. If she's around, but doesn't, either Morrison's run doesn't happen at all the way it did, and it's an entirely different story, or she loses for some reason afterwards, still we'd have some time with her as the Phoenix that would have influenced her thinking, and Scott's view of her.

The odds are that Jean's influence on Scott would have remained relatively consistent unless the PF changed Jean. That's a possibility, but it's one we can only speculate about since we have no way of knowing which direction future writers would have taken that. Precedent with Jean has been that PF doesn't make long term significant changes to her personality. Therefore the safest bet is to base her influence on Scott on what it's always been in the 30+ years of continuity prior to NXM.

[ExodusCloak]

The odds are that Jean's influence on Scott would have remained relatively consistent unless the PF changed Jean. That's a possibility, but it's one we can only speculate about since we have no way of knowing which direction future writers would have taken that. Precedent with Jean has been that PF doesn't make long term significant changes to her personality. Therefore the safest bet is to base her influence on Scott on what it's always been in the 30+ years of continuity prior to NXM.

No that's not exact. The situation around that time was unique. With no hope in sight, mutants reduced to less than 200. You cannot say that when all the X-Men were affected and changed

The most likely scenario is that Jean would have been numarveled. Probably carried Xavier secret babies off panel. And the children would have returned to assassinate Scott.

Every character will be numarveled.

[Hizashi]

Colleagues? Coworkers? Teammates? Yeah, anything but friends. They can get along from time to time, but I agree that their relationship is more interesting when there's some adversarial tension between them. And that doesn't necessarily have to involve Scott - although it can.

As pointed out by others, I think first by PrezValentine, Jean is capable of befriending Emma, but that doesn't mean that they should be friends.

[spirit2011]

Colleagues? Coworkers? Teammates? Yeah, anything but friends. They can get along from time to time, but I agree that their relationship is more interesting when there's some adversarial tension between them. And that doesn't necessarily have to involve Scott - although it can.

As pointed out by others, I think first by PrezValentine, Jean is capable of befriending Emma, but that doesn't mean that they should be friends.

Jean befriending Emma? hell no

At some point, you're gonna need to let that go. You can't let one single moment in time 15 years ago to your favorite fictional character control you this much.

Watch me then. #neverforget

People still use the Morrison run to justify screwing over Jean. so no forgeting for me

[Ulfhammer]

Scott's mode of decision making? You seem to be ignoring that there was a period between Morrison and Messiah Complex where Scott was still making decisions the way he did pre Morrison.

I don't think they're interchangeable. I think you're not giving Scott enough credit. He even went out of his way to distance himself from Emma as shown in Dark X-men the confessions as he knew the other X-Men would blame her for his decisions which were his own. And he didn't want that.

Scott changed Emma. She was fairly heroic during that tenure why he immersed himself in darkness

Also Emma stepped back during this period after the Torn/Cassandra Nova thing. So they went from co leaders to Scott as defects leader

So arguably it's the opposite her stepping back is what lead him to go down that path alone

She either influenced him or she didn't. You've already pointed out that she did so I'm not sure what we're arguing about. The fact that he influenced her as well has nothing to do with it. Besides, isn't the boilerplate argument with Frosties that Emma was heroic long before NXM?

Remember the basic premise I laid out. The X-Men, and specifically Scott would not have behaved the same way with Jean in the role Emma filled as it actually played out. I think you're making a compelling case that's actually true by pointing out how Emma's behavior influenced Scott's choices through actions that don't fit Jean's methods as previously established.

You're on questionable ground if you continue to argue that Jean and Emma would have gone about things in the same way, or even with the same intent. They are radically different people with radically different values. This isn't even debatable.

[Ulfhammer]

Every character will be numarveled.

I don't know what this term means...