Who agrees? Carol back as Ms. Marvel and Kamala with new original title

[Agent Z]

Since I mostly hang out in the Scarlet Witch thread I'm mostly thinking about them turning one of their few long standing, popular heroines into a bloodthirsty villain because they considered her expendable. (If they thought they already had enough non-evil superpowered women, they're nuts, because they clearly have too few.)

Cersi, Sprite, Thena, Makkari, Gamora, Mantis, Carol, Kamala, Monica and Shuri. That's ten. Eleven if we also count Clea appearing in the Dr. Strange sequel during a mid-credits scene.

But then we have giving their top heroine a movie after she's already been killed off, introducing the female Thor to kill her off instantly, draining America Chavez of a personality, and more on topic, taking Captain Marvel out of the title of her sequel.

Carol is sharing her movie with two other women who are also minorities.

[gurkle]

Cersi, Sprite, Thena, Makkari, Gamora, Mantis, Carol, Kamala, Monica and Shuri. That's ten. Eleven if we also count Clea appearing in the Dr. Strange sequel during a mid-credits scene.

Like I said, not nearly enough, especially when you factor in how the Eternals were only just introduced and there's no clear timeline for bringing them back.

When you don't have a lot of established heroic female characters, making one of them go on a murder spree says a lot about how they think about women characters. It's not only the women who have been treated badly, of course, but it sticks out more when you have, for example, the two male stars of Falcon & the Winter Soldier going on to heroic roles in movies, when you think about how they considered this character expendable after WandaVision.

Carol is sharing her movie with two other women who are also minorities.

Lots of characters share their sequels, but this is the only character who lost the title of her sequel. I have no idea what the thinking was behind that, but it felt a bit disrespectful of Carol. It was almost like Disney believed the meme that the character was unpopular; I don't think she's unpopular, but again, Disney does not seem to have the confidence in Captain Marvel that they do in Captain America.

[Ascended]

Marvel Television, which also made Agents of SHIELD and Agent Carter, which also aired on ABC. It's defunct now, they merged it with Marvel Studios, which led to the cancellation of all of it's shows (which also included the Netflix Defenders shows and some shows for Freeform such as Cloak and Dagger).

Ah Marvel television, how I remember. If we include the Marvel stuff that was made by other studios/companies, there's plenty of mediocre-to-bad out there. But Marvel Studios itself has yet to knock out a flop as far as I know, unless Eternals managed it?

Anyone else find it a little weird that over the last couple years, both Star Wars and Marvel have done better on tv/streaming than in theaters? And both are owned by Disney, which has had some uncharacteristic struggles with cinema as well?

Which will always make me wonder "What If Marvel had chosen to keep Monica Rambeau as Captain Marvel?" We'll never know the answer to this, but I suspect Monica would have been an even greater box office draw if the right person was cast to portray her. But oh well.

I was wondering that too. I think it'd depend entirely on what kind of career Monica would've had. Would the core themes, villains, and plots translate well to live action? I feel like an existential 'who am I?' crisis like Carol had in her first film isn't necessarily the best avenue for a big debut action-comedy-sci fi movie, but mindwipes are a part of her 'story cycle' so there we are. What would Monica's have been? How much of a push are we assuming Marvel gave her during this time?

I don't recall if Carol's film came out before T'Challa's, but "Captain Marvel" with Monica could have been the first black *and* female film of the MCU, and that certainly would've been a big deal.

[gurkle]

I was wondering that too. I think it'd depend entirely on what kind of career Monica would've had. Would the core themes, villains, and plots translate well to live action? I feel like an existential 'who am I?' crisis like Carol had in her first film isn't necessarily the best avenue for a big debut action-comedy-sci fi movie, but mindwipes are a part of her 'story cycle' so there we are. What would Monica's have been? How much of a push are we assuming Marvel gave her during this time?

It's probably already come up in the thread, but Monica is a classic case of a character taking on a code-name with no connection to the previous owner of the name. Roger Stern, the writer/co-creator of Monica, made it a point that she came up with the name "Captain Marvel" never having known there was a Captain Marvel before her, and came up with a rather awkward way of giving her the name.



Of course in superhero-ville, code names mean a lot, and Monica has come to be part of the Captain Marvel franchise because she held the name, but she is much harder to connect to the Mar-Vell legacy than Carol, who was chosen to be Ms. Marvel in part because of her connection to Mar-Vell.

[Ascended]

That's the biggest knock against Monica, I think, she has no larger mythos to bring with her. Carol and the Vells taps into the Kree, one of the biggest and most fleshed out cosmic corners of the 616. And Carol of course, has a whole history of her own too (though one with some real, real low points).

I suppose, if we're theorizing that Monica held the title across the decades, at some point a writer would've done something about that. Revealed that her mom was secretly Kree maybe.

....nah, that's too dumb even for comics.

.....

[Digifiend]

To be fair to Monica, Kamala has no lore reason to be Ms. Marvel either - she just took the name because she's a fan of Carol. There is a loose link since the Inhumans were first created by the Kree, but that might be about to be severed...

Ah Marvel television, how I remember. If we include the Marvel stuff that was made by other studios/companies, there's plenty of mediocre-to-bad out there. But Marvel Studios itself has yet to knock out a flop as far as I know, unless Eternals managed it?

I don't recall if Carol's film came out before T'Challa's, but "Captain Marvel" with Monica could have been the first black *and* female film of the MCU, and that certainly would've been a big deal.

Black Panther was first - before Infinity War. Captain Marvel was one of two films released between Infinity War and Endgame (the other being Ant-Man and the Wasp).

And yeah, there's definitely some flops on the TV side. Inhumans did the worst, but a few other shows didn't last long.

[Agent Z]

Like I said, not nearly enough, especially when you factor in how the Eternals were only just introduced and there's no clear timeline for bringing them back.

When you don't have a lot of established heroic female characters, making one of them go on a murder spree says a lot about how they think about women characters. It's not only the women who have been treated badly, of course, but it sticks out more when you have, for example, the two male stars of Falcon & the Winter Soldier going on to heroic roles in movies, when you think about how they considered this character expendable after WandaVision.

I'm not trying to be rude here and I truly do want to engage in good faith, but what number do you consider enough? Ten is not the biggest number, but it isn't zero and I have no doubt it will increase.

As far as Wanda's actions in Multiverse of Madness, the precedent was set in Age of Ultron where she debuted and WandaVision doubled down on it if anything. Wanda's issues began when they set her up as a villain willing to endanger innocent lives for her own ends.

Lots of characters share their sequels, but this is the only character who lost the title of her sequel. I have no idea what the thinking was behind that, but it felt a bit disrespectful of Carol. It was almost like Disney believed the meme that the character was unpopular; I don't think she's unpopular, but again, Disney does not seem to have the confidence in Captain Marvel that they do in Captain America.

Compared to Steve Rogers having his third movie turned into an adaptation of Civil War and having to share billing with the more popular Iron Man, this is nothing. Carol is in no danger of being overshadowed by Monica and Kamala, and they're more natural fits for a sequel in her story than Iron Man was for Steve or Hulk was for Thor. If Disney believed the meme that she was unpopular, they'd have fired Brie Larson or scrapped the character entirely. If they truly didn't have any confidence in her they'd have brought in a male character like Thor or Sam Wilson for her sequel, not two women of color.

[gurkle]

I'm not trying to be rude here and I truly do want to engage in good faith, but what number do you consider enough? Ten is not the biggest number, but it isn't zero and I have no doubt it will increase.

You don't sound rude at all, don't worry. I'm sorry if I sound too heated.

I don't know if there's a specific number, I just think it's not enough for a franchise that's been going on for this long, especially when you consider how many of these characters have only appeared once and may not appear again for years, and when you consider how few female-led MCU movies are coming (TV is different because studios consider female-led TV projects less "risky" than movies).

As far as Wanda's actions in Multiverse of Madness, the precedent was set in Age of Ultron where she debuted and WandaVision doubled down on it if anything. Wanda's issues began when they set her up as a villain willing to endanger innocent lives for her own ends.

I don't want to get too deep into the Multiverse of Madness weeds, but putting her through the same story she already went through in a movie and a show -- hurt innocent people, realizes she's wrong, tries to fix things -- is an example of how the MCU won't let characters grow (especially when they just showed in WandaVision that she would rather kill her children than go on hurt innocent people). But more importantly, they thought the story of a woman driven to irrationality by her desire to be a mother was so important it was worth putting her through the same story for the third time.

Compared to Steve Rogers having his third movie turned into an adaptation of Civil War and having to share billing with the more popular Iron Man, this is nothing. Carol is in no danger of being overshadowed by Monica and Kamala, and they're more natural fits for a sequel in her story than Iron Man was for Steve or Hulk was for Thor. If Disney believed the meme that she was unpopular, they'd have fired Brie Larson or scrapped the character entirely. If they truly didn't have any confidence in her they'd have brought in a male character like Thor or Sam Wilson for her sequel, not two women of color.

I would have preferred Captain America 3 to be a true Captain America movie, but my point is that at least they let him have the title. I don't think Monica or Kamala will overshadow Carol, I just think calling the sequel "The Marvels" instead of "Captain Marvel and the Marvels" (or whatever) is something that has never happened to a male MCU headliner, just like Black Widow is the first MCU hero to get a solo movie after she's already been killed off, just like Wanda is the first MCU hero to be turned into a mass murderer.

Just my own opinion, of course, but I see a pattern with all these firsts.

[Ascended]

To be fair to Monica, Kamala has no lore reason to be Ms. Marvel either - she just took the name because she's a fan of Carol. There is a loose link since the Inhumans were first created by the Kree, but that might be about to be severed...

"Fandom" isn't much of a reason, but it's a funny one. But I don't think Monica (or Kamala) needs a connection to the Kree or the Vell mythos. We've got Carol and what, three different Vell kids running around? That's enough. Monica and Kamala are probably better served developing their own stuff.

Black Panther was first - before Infinity War. Captain Marvel was one of two films released between Infinity War and Endgame (the other being Ant-Man and the Wasp).

Ah, right you are! That was a good couple years for the MCU.

I really do think the MCU isn't as bad now as people think it is, I think 2018-2020 just spoiled the ever-loving hell out of us.

[KurtW95]

If she hadn't been a Marvel legacy/derivative in the first place, I'd agree. Had Carol been Warbird (or something) from the start, then I wouldn't like her going by Captain Marvel and would consider it a regression, same as I'd be bothered by DC's Cyborg wearing a red cape and changing his name to Super-Robot-Guy. But since Carol was a Marvel, spinning off Mar-Vell from the start of her heroic career (and the first to do so, I believe), I see it more as a promotion.

I don't consider it a promotion to take someone else's original name when she has her own that she started with. And with regard to Captain being somehow more impressive than Ms. to justify the change. Or signify her Air Force history. Reed Richards was in the Army and has a doctorate but is known as Mister Fantastic. It would be weird to say he should be Doctor or Colonel Fantastic suddenly.

[KurtW95]

Of course in superhero-ville, code names mean a lot, and Monica has come to be part of the Captain Marvel franchise because she held the name, but she is much harder to connect to the Mar-Vell legacy than Carol, who was chosen to be Ms. Marvel in part because of her connection to Mar-Vell.

Which also makes it all the more weird that suddenly, twenty-five years after he dies in comics (which I know would still be a short time in in world), she would take his codename.

[gurkle]

Which also makes it all the more weird that suddenly, twenty-five years after he dies in comics (which I know would still be a shot time in in world), she would take his codename.

I don't have a problem with it personally but I haven't read the story where she was convinced to take the name (Secret Avengers, I think?) so I can't really judge how well it was justified.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing a meta version where they explain that unless she takes the name, it will become public domain and some villain could call themselves Captain Marvel instead.

But in any case I would rather Monica have had a Mar-Vell related reason to take the codename; that "the Captain is a Marvel" business never worked for me.

[Digifiend]

A villain had already taken the name. The entire Dark Avengers team was villains, and it had both a Ms. Marvel (Moonstone) and a Captain Marvel (Marvel Boy/Protector). Noh-Varr did end up heel-face turning though and later joined the Young Avengers and the Guardians of the Galaxy.

[mugiwara]

Kinda related question: what new name should Johnny Storm take, out of respect for the first of the marvels? The Human Flame? Fantastic Flame?

[Panic]

Friendly Fire?