Bendis leaving the Superman and Action Comics in December

[Vordan]

All bets are pointing towards Waid. I don't see him going back to DC for anything BUT Superman. The only question is this: which one does he get? One or both books?

I’m guessing he’ll want Superman proper given that’s the “main” book with Action being the “side” book. I hope we get different people on each book, I’m eager to get new voices on Superman in the post Bendis era.

I'd prefer he just have one. With the one likely being Superman.

Have both the main series and Action ever been handled by just one writer, before Bendis?

I think Paul Cornell was on Action and Superman at the end of the Pre-FP era.

[Somecrazyaussie]

You’d think people would learn to just stop replying when he goes off on diatribes about how Superman should just be turned into whatever anime/manga he’s consuming but no, they always gotta argue with him.

The only thing regarding anime/manga that the Superman books should borrow is the epic scale of the fights/battles. If Superman is going to fight someone as physically powerful as him, I want to see mountains crumble, tsunami's caused if fighting under water etc.

I've seen people draw parallels between Goku and Superman in this thread. You can't say Goku is a better character when Toriyama basically adopted Superman's entire backstory for Goku - alien infant sent from a doomed race to Earth. Grows up and travels the world to train/learn about themselves. Becomes Earth's greatest hero/protector. You even had Bardock (Goku's dad) trying to warn the other Saiyans of their impending demise and not being believed. Originally, Bardock was just a warrior granted psychic abilities. Super revised this and he now has a scientific background as well.

Even Majin Buu ripped off Doomsday (a creature created to cause havok and is imprisoned deep within the Earth before known civilization).

It's a domino effect. Goku was initially a spin on The Monkey King from Journey to The West. Later on he morphed into a Superman parable. Goku then, in turn, inspired other Shounen characters such as Naruto and Luffy from One Piece. I'm sure there are countless others.

Superman as a character is timeless and as mythic as Gilgamesh or the Greek Gods. Why? Because the very things he stands for are transcendent. He is somebody who inspires others and gives others something to aspire towards.

[Laufeyson]

The only thing regarding anime/manga that the Superman books should borrow is the epic scale of the fights/battles. If Superman is going to fight someone as physically powerful as him, I want to see mountains crumble, tsunami's caused if fighting under water etc.

I've seen people draw parallels between Goku and Superman in this thread. You can't say Goku is a better character when Toriyama basically adopted Superman's entire backstory for Goku - alien infant sent from a doomed race to Earth. Grows up and travels the world to train/learn about themselves. Becomes Earth's greatest hero/protector. You even had Bardock (Goku's dad) trying to warn the other Saiyans of their impending demise and not being believed. Originally, Bardock was just a warrior granted psychic abilities. Super revised this and he now has a scientific background as well.

Even Majin Buu ripped off Doomsday (a creature created to cause havok and is imprisoned deep within the Earth before known civilization).

It's a domino effect. Goku was initially a spin on The Monkey King from Journey to The West. Later on he morphed into a Superman parable. Goku then, in turn, inspired other Shounen characters such as Naruto and Luffy from One Piece. I'm sure there are countless others.

Superman as a character is timeless and as mythic as Gilgamesh or the Greek Gods. Why? Because the very things he stands for are transcendent. He is somebody who inspires others and gives others something to aspire towards.

I think I can't agree more with this post than it is. But this is a really good post to sum up Goku and Superman's relationship.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I’m guessing he’ll want Superman proper given that’s the “main” book with Action being the “side” book. I hope we get different people on each book, I’m eager to get new voices on Superman in the post Bendis era.

I think Paul Cornell was on Action and Superman at the end of the Pre-FP era.

He will get one of them. The trouble is that Waid likes to have his own little box to play in. One character that he can be solely responsible for. By taking one of the books (preferably the main one), he will be sharing the toys with someone else. We shall see.

Paul Cornell handled Action only. Chris Roberson took over Superman from JMS and finished Grounded based on his outline. Roberson is the one who really salvaged that storyline. So much so, I really wanted him to take over the main title when they announced the New52. He set up so many threads such as the Fortress of Solidarity and the Supermen of America (a Superman team comprised of Steel, Supergirl, Superboy, Iron Munro and Super Chief).

[Vordan]

He will get one of them. The trouble is that Waid likes to have his own little box to play in. One character that he can be solely responsible for. By taking one of the books (preferably the main one), he will be sharing the toys with someone else. We shall see.

Paul Cornell handled Action only. Chris Roberson took over Superman from JMS and finished Grounded based on his outline. Roberson is the one who really salvaged that storyline. So much so, I really wanted him to take over the main title when they announced the New52. He set up so many threads such as the Fortress of Solidarity and the Supermen of America (a Superman team comprised of Steel, Supergirl, Superboy, Iron Munro and Super Chief).

Which is why I originally figured he’d do a Black Label Superman book but well... the Bloodbath happened.

Roberson had some interesting ideas for sure. There were some parts of his salvage attempt I wasn’t a fan of, but there were also some cool ideas like the stuff you mentioned.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Which is why I originally figured he’d do a Black Label Superman book but well... the Bloodbath happened.

Roberson had some interesting ideas for sure. There were some parts of his salvage attempt I wasn’t a fan of, but there were also some cool ideas like the stuff you mentioned.

It is hard to tell which stuff was Roberson and which were JMS (purely because he had to finish the story based on the original outline). That being said, I only got invested in that story once he came onboard.

Nah, Waid would only want to write THE Superman. Accept no substitutes! It has me thinking though, if Waid were to get the gig on one of the titles, would he bring Birthright back into continuity? I recently went back and read it again the other day when the rumours about Waid surfaced. Out of all the origin retellings, Waid updated the mythology the most. The guy had some interesting ideas and most of them were logical progressions.

There isn't anything inherently wrong with Superman as a character. He works just fine. But his world needs a major retooling. Newspapers are on the way out, The Daily Planet needs to be mostly online now. A 24hr news outlet where people get instantaneous updates. I know Johns tried to explain that the Daily Planet sells because of Superman arriving in Metropolis. But that aspect needs to be brought into the 21st century.

If it were me, Lois would have made her name as a war correspondent before moving into investigative journalism. Her dad being a general means she would get into places no other journalist could in a million years. Clark, but nature of his travels, would have been a foreign correspondent before arriving at the Planet (reporting on everything from genocides, ethnic cleansing, cultural tensions etc). Everybody else covers their own areas - Ron as a political commentator, Lombard as sports writer, Jimmy being hired as a web-master with aspirations to be a photo-journalist (for goodness sake, ditch the bowtie's as well).

[KingDragonlord]

The only thing regarding anime/manga that the Superman books should borrow is the epic scale of the fights/battles. If Superman is going to fight someone as physically powerful as him, I want to see mountains crumble, tsunami's caused if fighting under water etc.

I've seen people draw parallels between Goku and Superman in this thread. You can't say Goku is a better character when Toriyama basically adopted Superman's entire backstory for Goku - alien infant sent from a doomed race to Earth. Grows up and travels the world to train/learn about themselves. Becomes Earth's greatest hero/protector. You even had Bardock (Goku's dad) trying to warn the other Saiyans of their impending demise and not being believed. Originally, Bardock was just a warrior granted psychic abilities. Super revised this and he now has a scientific background as well.

Even Majin Buu ripped off Doomsday (a creature created to cause havok and is imprisoned deep within the Earth before known civilization).

To say that Goku ripped off Superman and Maajiin Buu ripped off Doomsday does a huge disservice to both characters. Literally the only thing Goku borrows directly from Superman is the alien from another planet sent in a ship when he's a baby angle. They're even sent for different reasons, or at least that's originally how it went until the recent Broly movie made the origin story a little more Superman-like probably for simplicity for movie audiences.

But other than that they're very different characters. Clark grows up on a farm, goes to the city becomes a reporter, fits into civilized society just fine. Goku grows up in the woods and apart from the occasional times he trains with various martial arts masters, he's on his own in the woods his entire childhood and spends his time growing up adventuring. He has no social graces, little respect for authority, has a lot of trouble fitting into society and even now he hasn't got the hang of it and he's innocent and naive except when it comes to fighting. He's obsessed with training and eating to the point that he neglects all the other parts of his life as much as his friends and family will let him get away with it. Notably he was a father long before Superman had an official mainline continuity son (yes they'd played with the idea of Superman having a son many times in the Silver Age but it was never canon to the main books). He also gets excited about fighting stronger and stronger opponents, a motivation Superman definitely doesn't have (its certainly not a consistent character trait or a primary motivation for Superman like it is for Goku. And if it is, then Superman is ripping off Goku).

And I'm not doing him justice. Goku is very different from Superman. Everything about him aside from them being super powered aliens that arrived on earth as babies, is different and those differences matter far more than the similarities. Even when you look at the powers. Goku has to train relentlessly and is continuously building his power. Superman has trained at times but his power his entirely a gift of his alien genetics fueled by the sun.

Its also an apples an oranges comparison. I can't say much about Superman because anything I do say about him you'll contradict with some issue where he behaved very differently. And that's because he gets written by new writers constantly. Its a new team every three or four years on average.

By contrast, Akira Toriyama has been writing Goku for 36 years and he's written Goku from childhood into adulthood over a steady progression (another difference, Superman's childhood is backstory and he tends to stay statically in a certain age range over the decades, Goku has been steadily aging and his series started with him as a kid not really having a Superman type power set.) So you're comparing a consistently written evolving character with a static, inconsistently written character. It doesn't make sense to try to compare them. Which Superman am I comparing Goku to? The Bendis Superman? The Loeb Superman? The Jurgens(the Superman I grew up with)? The Morrison? The Byrne?

[KingDragonlord]

That doesn't even get into the differences between Maajiin Buu and Doomsday which are much more extreme. Maajiin Buu first of all has different powers from Doomsday, a completely different appearance, a different personality, which is to say, Maajiin Buu actually has a personality, Doomsday is just a rampaging beast. About the only thing they both have in common is that they can regenerate. But they're regenerations even work differently. And the whole "monster in the ground" thing? The guys who wrote Doomsday didn't invent that. That's been a trope in fiction for a long time.

Maajiin Buu has a whole different vibe. He's a superpowerful cartoon character who's goofiness and silliness belies his menace. Doomsday is just the baddest monster Superman has ever faced (at that point in his career). They're entirely different concepts apart from being powerful monsters.

They also tell a different story. Notably the heroic sacrifice is performed by someone other than the supposed Superman-analog and it fails to stop the Doomsday-analog. In this story, the Superman analog starts out dead and comes back to life to beat the Doomsday analog, and that reversal is just the simplest of ways the story is different. I'm not going to defend the Majiin Buu plot. Its drags on far too long and is silly and convoluted. Doomsday's story by comparison is short and to the point (if anything its too simple for a the Death of Superman story), but that just reinforces my point that there are major differences between the stories and the characters.

[Myskin]

It is hard to tell which stuff was Roberson and which were JMS (purely because he had to finish the story based on the original outline)..

When Roberson took over, there was barely a plot. Just an extremely generic outline of the first issues (if I remember it well). Nobody will ever know for sure, but the issues which followed JMS' initial chapters were probably 90, 95% Roberson's.

[The World]

To say that Goku ripped off Superman and Maajiin Buu ripped off Doomsday does a huge disservice to both characters. Literally the only thing Goku borrows directly from Superman is the alien from another planet sent in a ship when he's a baby angle. They're even sent for different reasons, or at least that's originally how it went until the recent Broly movie made the origin story a little more Superman-like probably for simplicity for movie audiences.

But other than that they're very different characters. Clark grows up on a farm, goes to the city becomes a reporter, fits into civilized society just fine. Goku grows up in the woods and apart from the occasional times he trains with various martial arts masters, he's on his own in the woods his entire childhood and spends his time growing up adventuring. He has no social graces, little respect for authority, has a lot of trouble fitting into society and even now he hasn't got the hang of it and he's innocent and naive except when it comes to fighting. He's obsessed with training and eating to the point that he neglects all the other parts of his life as much as his friends and family will let him get away with it. Notably he was a father long before Superman had an official mainline continuity son (yes they'd played with the idea of Superman having a son many times in the Silver Age but it was never canon to the main books). He also gets excited about fighting stronger and stronger opponents, a motivation Superman definitely doesn't have (its certainly not a consistent character trait or a primary motivation for Superman like it is for Goku. And if it is, then Superman is ripping off Goku).

And I'm not doing him justice. Goku is very different from Superman. Everything about him aside from them being super powered aliens that arrived on earth as babies, is different and those differences matter far more than the similarities. Even when you look at the powers. Goku has to train relentlessly and is continuously building his power. Superman has trained at times but his power his entirely a gift of his alien genetics fueled by the sun.

Its also an apples an oranges comparison. I can't say much about Superman because anything I do say about him you'll contradict with some issue where he behaved very differently. And that's because he gets written by new writers constantly. Its a new team every three or four years on average.

By contrast, Akira Toriyama has been writing Goku for 36 years and he's written Goku from childhood into adulthood over a steady progression (another difference, Superman's childhood is backstory and he tends to stay statically in a certain age range over the decades, Goku has been steadily aging and his series started with him as a kid not really having a Superman type power set.) So you're comparing a consistently written evolving character with a static, inconsistently written character. It doesn't make sense to try to compare them. Which Superman am I comparing Goku to? The Bendis Superman? The Loeb Superman? The Jurgens(the Superman I grew up with)? The Morrison? The Byrne?

Yeah, pretty much.

As simple as he is Goku is still a character with drives and motivations that dictate what his character is going to be like for better and for worse. Superman's character is dominated by a need to get back to status quo's and have certain affectations. It's the wildest thing because I was recently reading Jim Kelly's Supermen and Women of the Universe thread and there's a scene from the Silver Age where Supes is showing Lois around the FOS. At one point he ends up stepping into an arena with a giant creature that he says he wrestles to keep in top form and I immediately said to myself this wouldn't be allowed today because it presents Superman as someone who does SUPER things for personal fun and leisure. It something that might create the idea that he does something outside of being a husband to Lois and a son to the Kents.

And yeah the general inability to create a general frame of what Superman is about is just another problem. I think the modern writers have attempted to circumvent this by writing him in the the MOST simplistic way possible as naive farmboy who happens to be a Superhero but I think that's just creating more problems than actually solving any.

[Konja7]

To say that Goku ripped off Superman and Maajiin Buu ripped off Doomsday does a huge disservice to both characters. Literally the only thing Goku borrows directly from Superman is the alien from another planet sent in a ship when he's a baby angle. They're even sent for different reasons, or at least that's originally how it went until the recent Broly movie made the origin story a little more Superman-like probably for simplicity for movie audiences.

But other than that they're very different characters. Clark grows up on a farm, goes to the city becomes a reporter, fits into civilized society just fine. Goku grows up in the woods and apart from the occasional times he trains with various martial arts masters, he's on his own in the woods his entire childhood and spends his time growing up adventuring. He has no social graces, little respect for authority, has a lot of trouble fitting into society and even now he hasn't got the hang of it and he's innocent and naive except when it comes to fighting. He's obsessed with training and eating to the point that he neglects all the other parts of his life as much as his friends and family will let him get away with it. Notably he was a father long before Superman had an official mainline continuity son (yes they'd played with the idea of Superman having a son many times in the Silver Age but it was never canon to the main books). He also gets excited about fighting stronger and stronger opponents, a motivation Superman definitely doesn't have (its certainly not a consistent character trait or a primary motivation for Superman like it is for Goku. And if it is, then Superman is ripping off Goku).

And I'm not doing him justice. Goku is very different from Superman. Everything about him aside from them being super powered aliens that arrived on earth as babies, is different and those differences matter far more than the similarities. Even when you look at the powers. Goku has to train relentlessly and is continuously building his power. Superman has trained at times but his power his entirely a gift of his alien genetics fueled by the sun.

Its also an apples an oranges comparison. I can't say much about Superman because anything I do say about him you'll contradict with some issue where he behaved very differently. And that's because he gets written by new writers constantly. Its a new team every three or four years on average.

By contrast, Akira Toriyama has been writing Goku for 36 years and he's written Goku from childhood into adulthood over a steady progression (another difference, Superman's childhood is backstory and he tends to stay statically in a certain age range over the decades, Goku has been steadily aging and his series started with him as a kid not really having a Superman type power set.) So you're comparing a consistently written evolving character with a static, inconsistently written character. It doesn't make sense to try to compare them. Which Superman am I comparing Goku to? The Bendis Superman? The Loeb Superman? The Jurgens(the Superman I grew up with)? The Morrison? The Byrne?

In fact, the manga never mentioned or show that Goku was a baby when he was sent to earth, the dialogue in the manga implied he was a little child, but enough grow up to remember some things (although he forgot due to the amnesia). The anime makes him a baby when he was sent to earth.

Not to mention that this part of his story happened pretty later in the manga. So, he has a good amount of stories before his past start to be important (although maybe this aspect is similar to Superman).

[Ascended]

See, manwhohaseverything hates the Space Prince aspect and I kind of don't love it either. I don't like Clark essentially being a royal figure because it conflicts with his nature as a man of the people who champions the little guy. If anything, that distances him further from his core ideals.

It *can* remove Clark more from his core ideals if writers lean into the idea of him *acting* like royalty, but it's also a more personal reminder of what he lost when Krypton blew up; not just a home and parents but status. He *should* have grown up with privilege; the son of Krypton's greatest mind, with access to all the opportunities and education such a social position would indicate, and Kal would certainly have followed his father into a position of great authority on the Counsel.

Instead he spent his youth mucking out stables, milking cows, and getting up before the sun rose to do menial labor around a small, humble farm. How many fairy tales and myths start out with a exiled/lost prince living the life of the common man, only to grow up and use his great power and authority for the betterment of the people, rather than the higher institutions they were born into? Superman coming from such a "royal" background, but being a salt-of-the-earth, working class guy is pretty archetypal. If a writer goes in the wrong direction with that and writes Superman acting like a king then the writer doesn't get the character in the first place and this particular element is the least of our problems.

[manwhohaseverything]

The only thing regarding anime/manga that the Superman books should borrow is the epic scale of the fights/battles. If Superman is going to fight someone as physically powerful as him, I want to see mountains crumble, tsunami's caused if fighting under water etc.

I've seen people draw parallels between Goku and Superman in this thread. You can't say Goku is a better character when Toriyama basically adopted Superman's entire backstory for Goku - alien infant sent from a doomed race to Earth. Grows up and travels the world to train/learn about themselves. Becomes Earth's greatest hero/protector. You even had Bardock (Goku's dad) trying to warn the other Saiyans of their impending demise and not being believed. Originally, Bardock was just a warrior granted psychic abilities. Super revised this and he now has a scientific background as well.

Even Majin Buu ripped off Doomsday (a creature created to cause havok and is imprisoned deep within the Earth before known civilization).

It's a domino effect. Goku was initially a spin on The Monkey King from Journey to The West. Later on he morphed into a Superman parable. Goku then, in turn, inspired other Shounen characters such as Naruto and Luffy from One Piece. I'm sure there are countless others.

Superman as a character is timeless and as mythic as Gilgamesh or the Greek Gods. Why? Because the very things he stands for are transcendent. He is somebody who inspires others and gives others something to aspire towards.

Superman isn't mythic. He could be if a right writer gets a hold of him. As he is now. He ain't. He used to be. The goldenage was basically a gladiator story which parallel fenrir wolf, spartacus, moses, hercules ... Etc.Greek gods? Which one? Zeus? please, superman was never somekind of sky father figure he is made out to be. Donner basically made him into jesus figure and a knight . Carry on with that god thing. His opposite batman is based on nietzschean cynicism which declared "god is dead" and openly questioned moral authority figures like the church and surprisingly superman now. Carry on with that boring nonsense. If i was to make superman into any parallel he would be prometheus, atlas... Etc. What kind of parallel used has tremendous implication. Making superman into knight from a gladiator made him into a stooge that got his ass kicked.

As for gilgamesh, I don't see it. Could you elaborate?what part of the epic makes you think that?

I refuse to talk about animes and manga. People here are sick of it.i have made it pretty clear that i don't consider superman complex. He is simple as it gets. Simpler than any contemporary hero or shonen hero for that matter. He is pre-enlightenment era dogma wraped around in a cape and an outdated strongman suit. "thou shall follow me as paragon of virtues" blah! . So, nope! Superman ain't goku or yeah! He wishes he was luffy. That's the only response i am gonna give. Clark's whole world view is outdated. It's not even questioned in the books. The guy never proves himself in anything. So how is that complex? Drama doesn't mean complexity. Never has and never will be.Don't talk as if superbooks are kafka or dostoevsky.Btw! Dostoevsky's books are great for questioning superman's world view and reaffirming it. For anyone that's interested.

[kilderkin]

Supermans world view is very simple

If you have the ability to make the world a better place, you should try

You might not succeed, but you should try

That's why it's a never ending fight

Some might find that simplistic and boring

Personally I think it's as heroic as it gets

[manwhohaseverything]

Supermans world view is very simple

If you have the ability to make the world a better place, you should try

You might not succeed, but you should try

That's why it's a never ending fight

Some might find that simplistic and boring

Personally I think it's as heroic as it gets

I don't see it. He preaches a lot and actually does very little. I don't feel he is trying. He has his bubble of friends and family. He doesn't see beyond that. Ofcourse, he goes to space now and then. Watches the earth from a different vantage point. But, that's away from actual real people and societies . He is disconnected. Moreover, it's not because he is simple that he is boring. It's because he is boring that he is boring. He is a guy with messiah complex trying act out his role. He doesn't actually "love" people and he doesn't actually believe in "good". He is just entrenched in the roleplay that he actually believes himself to be moral. See, you know how superman became a thing clark kent does. Well, i believe the connotation is now superman is role clark plays. The messiah roleplay.Gone are the days when clark kent disguise was used to poke fun at human fickleness.So for me, He just doesn't have anything to him.

Superman was that simple as well. If you misuse your strength to dominate and control the weak. Then you are going down. I love me a simple character with convictions.