X-Force #12 Spoiler/Review - DOOF! The Condescension of Hank McCoy

[JB]

All great posts. Ultimately it's about interpretation for each reader. When I think of •-[A]-• I never thought of him as a "villain". He's ancient and odd and interesting so for me it's not much a stretch to see him where he is now. And it seems we can all agree that as long as the stories are good, we're in.

[Link]

Has colossus and neena been in a relationship in the past? Their dialogue seems like they have but I don’t remember reading anything like that

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Has colossus and neena been in a relationship in the past? Their dialogue seems like they have but I don’t remember reading anything like that

Cable and X-Force by Dennis Hopeless.

[Glio]

Yes, Domino loves huge guys.

[Steel Inquisitor]

All great posts. Ultimately it's about interpretation for each reader. When I think of •-[A]-• I never thought of him as a "villain". He's ancient and odd and interesting so for me it's not much a stretch to see him where he is now.

You're right about how people interpret characters are up to the individual what can't be disputed was how Apocalypse was written as a villain for the majority of his existence and even now is doing shady things which still keep faithful to those interpretations. Like sacrificing others for his own agenda and believing in a Darwinian ideology. Right now he thinks Krakoa are the the strongest, but how ill will that last? Probably won't be forever. I'm curious why you wouldn't think of him as a villain in his stories, however. Being a villain is how he's coded in comics from the beginning, they weren't hiding that fact. The imagery and language associated with him related to death, murder, disaster, genocide and the end of all things. He's a force of nature that wipes the Earth clean of anyone he deems "unfit" and mutants were never not on that list. A key quote Louise Simonson said in an interview with the Philadelphia Enquire was how if he had to choose between killing Hulk and Colossus for being unfit he wouldn't he hesitate to kill Colossus.

And it seems we can all agree that as long as the stories are good, we're in.

Was that ever in question? People like good stories, that's why X-men is a marketing juggernaut.

[loke13]

You're right about how people interpret characters are up to the individual what can't be disputed was how Apocalypse was written as a villain for the majority of his existence and even now is doing shady things which still keep faithful to those interpretations. Like sacrificing others for his own agenda and believing in a Darwinian ideology. Right now he thinks Krakoa are the the strongest, but how ill will that last? Probably won't be forever. I'm curious why you wouldn't think of him as a villain in his stories, however. Being a villain is how he's coded in comics from the beginning, they weren't hiding that fact. The imagery and language associated with him related to death, murder, disaster, genocide and the end of all things. He's a force of nature that wipes the Earth clean of anyone he deems "unfit" and mutants were never not on that list. A key quote Louise Simonson said in an interview with the Philadelphia Enquire was how if he had to choose between killing Hulk and Colossus for being unfit he wouldn't he hesitate to kill Colossus.



Was that ever in question? People like good stories, that's why X-men is a marketing juggernaut.

Tbh for me it just doesn't seem as if Hickman is interested in telling the story of a villainous Apocalypse or at least one that has been as two-dimensional as he has been in the past. One of the reasons why he retconned Apocalypse's motives was to re position him into some who falls more into the morally grey area. And now that mutant kind has taken its evolutionary Leap Forward in his mind and embraced their Destiny as the dominant species on Earth he seems much more content at being a force for good (at least for mutants) it's no coincidence that apocalypse's showings have been more heroic rather than antagonistic throughout this New Era. He's still the same ruthless and merciless guy at the X-Men have battled so many times in the past but he's now using those traits for mutantkind kind instead of against them but like you said we'll see how long that lasts lol

[Technopriest]

You're right about how people interpret characters are up to the individual what can't be disputed was how Apocalypse was written as a villain for the majority of his existence and even now is doing shady things which still keep faithful to those interpretations. Like sacrificing others for his own agenda and believing in a Darwinian ideology. Right now he thinks Krakoa are the the strongest, but how ill will that last? Probably won't be forever. I'm curious why you wouldn't think of him as a villain in his stories, however. Being a villain is how he's coded in comics from the beginning, they weren't hiding that fact. The imagery and language associated with him related to death, murder, disaster, genocide and the end of all things. He's a force of nature that wipes the Earth clean of anyone he deems "unfit" and mutants were never not on that list. A key quote Louise Simonson said in an interview with the Philadelphia Enquire was how if he had to choose between killing Hulk and Colossus for being unfit he wouldn't he hesitate to kill Colossus.



Was that ever in question? People like good stories, that's why X-men is a marketing juggernaut.

This. The issue is not whether Apocalypse is being portrayed in a more gray way now, is whether that has always been the case. Once again to try to make it clear, if this is the story that Hickman wants to tell and it ends up being interesting, so be it, I am along for the ride. I am not a fan of the character because he was two dimensional for much of his existence (same way that Magneto was for the 60s and 70s) and his stories wore thin rather quickly, but the fact remains that he was firmly established as both an antagonist and a villain for most of his existence. To deny that seems rather strange, since the writers and even his creator wrote the character that way. Apocalypse was never written as an antihero in most of his stories, and even in his origin story he ends up a villain, only the he was the protagonist there instead of the antagonist, so we were seeing that story from mostly his perspective.

[Technopriest]

Tbh for me it just doesn't seem as if Hickman is interested in telling the story of a villainous Apocalypse or at least one that has been as two-dimensional as he has been in the past. One of the reasons why he retconned Apocalypse's motives was to re position him into some who falls more into the morally grey area. And now that mutant kind has taken its evolutionary Leap Forward in his mind and embraced their Destiny as the dominant species on Earth he seems much more content at being a force for good (at least for mutants) it's no coincidence that apocalypse's showings have been more heroic rather than antagonistic throughout this New Era. He's still the same ruthless and merciless guy at the X-Men have battled so many times in the past but he's now using those traits for mutantkind kind instead of against them but like you said we'll see how long that lasts lol

Which is fair, but doesn’t change the fact that Apocalypse was a villain for most of his publishing existence and that Hickman is doing some serious retconing. Once again, if the story ends up being good and Apocalypse moves on from being the two dimensional villain he has been for most of his stories ala Magneto, I am willing to read it.

[Technopriest]

All great posts. Ultimately it's about interpretation for each reader. When I think of •-[A]-• I never thought of him as a "villain". He's ancient and odd and interesting so for me it's not much a stretch to see him where he is now. And it seems we can all agree that as long as the stories are good, we're in.

He was a villain, but more in the force of nature category than the bank robber one. But I agree, if the stories are ultimately good and Apocalypse ends up becoming as complex a character as Magneto it will be interesting to read. I am not opposed to that, just accept there is some serious retconing going on, same as with Moira, same as with Mr Sinuster, and same as when Claremont did the same with Magneto. Ultimately I am interested in the end product. If it is good and adds to the overall narrative I am all for it.

[Zelena]

He was a villain, but more in the force of nature category than the bank robber one. But I agree, if the stories are ultimately good and Apocalypse ends up becoming as complex a character as Magneto it will be interesting to read. I am not opposed to that, just accept there is some serious retconing going on, same as with Moira, same as with Mr Sinuster, and same as when Claremont did the same with Magneto. Ultimately I am interested in the end product. If it is good and adds to the overall narrative I am all for it.

The narrative needs that all mutant villains support the “mutant community”. Without them, no Krakoa, it would be: “good people” against “bad people”…

Like that, it is “mutants” vs “humans”.

[Devaishwarya]

All great posts. Ultimately it's about interpretation for each reader. When I think of •-[A]-• I never thought of him as a "villain". He's ancient and odd and interesting so for me it's not much a stretch to see him where he is now. And it seems we can all agree that as long as the stories are good, we're in.

Exactatiously.

For me, he started out as a villain in x-Factor.
Then his history was filled in and fleshed out over the intervening years and he became a more complex, "grey" character.
Now, HiX-Man has written him decidedly on the side of the heroes (HoX/PoX/XM) due in part that it serves his own purpose and that of mutants in general.

The very nature of HOW comic book stories are written means that characters can and do evolve and change, regress and progress, as their personal stories unfold under new and different writers. Some of those canonical changes we don't care for, and some we embrace...that's up to each, individual reader based on their personal interpretation.

[FluffyCyclopsRLZ]

Caught up with this over the weekend. Yeah, yeah, I know there's plenty of other stuff going on with the book, but I just can't get over how... embarrassingly basic the whole Dark Beast thing is. Oh well.

[loke13]

Which is fair, but doesn’t change the fact that Apocalypse was a villain for most of his publishing existence and that Hickman is doing some serious retconing. Once again, if the story ends up being good and Apocalypse moves on from being the two dimensional villain he has been for most of his stories ala Magneto, I am willing to read it.

Never said it didn't merely expressing why I've got no problem accepting the retcon that Hickman is doing. This is the most interesting that I have found Apocalypse.

[BishopsJuice91]

So either Hank will be punished for being shady or Colossus will leave Krakoa for good I don’t see him staying after this. Why hasn’t Magik been arrested?

[Ikari]

So either Hank will be punished for being shady or Colossus will leave Krakoa for good I don’t see him staying after this. Why hasn’t Magik been arrested?

Magik is a Captain and strategic asset for the Krakoans...but I suppose Beast has to have some kind of plan to take her down too. Otherwise his message about 'nobody is safe' or whatever is greatly lessened, right?
But it has to be something bit more subtle than having your goons walk up to her with handcuffs and say "Yo, you're arrested based on this very nebulous ethnic profiling, put these on willya?" That might not work out too well.

I am kinda digging this storyline, I'm a sucker for stories where a hero slowly turns insane/evil, as long as they take their sweet time to develope it. Also, am I the only one looking forward for Rasputin siblings reunion? Surely they wouldn't miss the opportunity for that?