Stephen Strange: Doctor Strange Appreciation 2021

[DigiCom]

According to folks on this thread, Strange has an EXTREMELY choppy history, regular reinvention, inconsistent powers, frequent depowering-by-plot, and uncertain mythology. It's no wonder people have had a hell of a time writing for the good Doctor.

In all fairness, this is true of pretty much EVERY superhero comic.

Love your description of "soft" and "hard" magic systems. If I join other message boards and forums, I might have to claim your words as my own!

All I ask is proper credit.

[Albert1981]

I really honestly can't care what storytelling perspective Quesada has after he messed up the Avengers titles for so many years with his theories on things.

And him being the one that felt mutants couldn't be marginalized nor a minority with millions in the universe. Even though there's billions of people overall. And people can be marginalized and have even an equal population number.

I sorta understand why Marvel wanted to get mutants down in numbers. They're not just any marginalized community. They have a lot of powers that could make them dangerous. To me, they're like professional athletes, billionaires and Nobel Prize laureates. The more of them there are, the less "special" they become. If half the world were members of Mensa International, it wouldn't be all that noteworthy. But the way Marvel used "magic" to get rid of most mutants and to alter reality to end marriages is LAUGHABLE. You could make the argument that Marvel editorship's opinions on magical characters means about precisely zip as they seem to think they can almost do everything.

[Albert1981]

In all fairness, this is true of pretty much EVERY superhero comic.



All I ask is proper credit.

Oh, don't worry. I will if I do. That description was so good. I hope Marvel and DC comic book writers and movie screenwriters take a look at it. It's great!

[GenericUsername]

I sorta understand why Marvel wanted to get mutants down in numbers. They're not just any marginalized community. They have a lot of powers that could make them dangerous. To me, they're like professional athletes, billionaires and Nobel Prize laureates. The more of them there are, the less "special" they become. If half the world were members of Mensa International, it wouldn't be all that noteworthy. But the way Marvel used "magic" to get rid of most mutants and to alter reality to end marriages is LAUGHABLE. You could make the argument that Marvel editorship's opinions on magical characters means about precisely zip as they seem to think they can almost do everything.

They could do like they always did with characters and just not write them. Also Morrison had already worked to make the numbers smaller. They didn't need to fire sale two franchises under Marvel to do it either. That was Quesada's idea. He's far better at art than story theory and interpreting characters.

[Hypestyle]

I found a pretty good coffee-table book on Doc Strange, The Mysterious World of Dr. Strange, for cheap ($5) at a retail store this week. Looks like this was originally published in 2016, so it has relatively up to date information, lots of good text essays, character profiles and photos from the different eras.

https://www.dk.com/uk/book/978024127...octor-strange/

[Clea]

I found a pretty good coffee-table book on Doc Strange, The Mysterious World of Dr. Strange, for cheap ($5) at a retail store this week. Looks like this was originally published in 2016, so it has relatively up to date information, lots of good text essays, character profiles and photos from the different eras.

https://www.dk.com/uk/book/978024127...octor-strange/

Nice! I will order one for myself. It looks terrific.

[Albert1981]

They could do like they always did with characters and just not write them. Also Morrison had already worked to make the numbers smaller. They didn't need to fire sale two franchises under Marvel to do it either. That was Quesada's idea. He's far better at art than story theory and interpreting characters.

Yeah, it could have been handled better. I wasn't there when it happened, so maybe that clouds my understanding of the issue. I just think it's funny that Marvel keeps using "magic" the way it does in order to deal with problematic things in its comic books. It just turns me off from mystical stories by DC and Marvel in general.

I am sympathetic to some of Quesada's concerns about magically inclined characters, be they Doctor Strange, Zatanna, or otherwise. They're written as if they can do anything, or close enough. Never mind having definitive rules or limitations - magic's this free, unbound thing that effectively grants almost unlimited power for some bizarre reason (often times for no reason at all!). Even if some writers don't do it that way, some do. Which works for the occasional plot device here and there, but when you're writing about the magician as the protagonist, it can be a bit of a problem. I think one way to curb writers from making their characters use magic irresponsibly and illogically is to say that magic typically comes at a cost. I don't wanna have characters constantly pulling new powers out of thin air.

Here's a comment supporting Quesada's views:

"I kind of agree with Quesada. It's the same issue I had with Superman, that there's never any real peril, because Superman or Strange will whip something out that defuses the problem by the last page of the comic."

Thankfully the movies have circumvented deus ex machinas relating to magic very nicely as DigiCom mentioned previously. I hope this continues in the MoM.

[Albert1981]

Basically this. In single series having rules is easy because there is one single author to keep it the same. Berserk, Full-Metal alchemist, and Naruto all have magical systems guided by one author. They were all very popular mangas. Doctor Strange had Ditko set down the original rules and so did Stern who tried to follow those rules as closely as possible, likely because he went back to try to make sense what Ditko wrote. I am accrediting Ditko as DS primary creator, here. While there was some oddities, they were for the most part consentient. And it's important that in the Ditko days, he almost never won by being stronger. He was smarter. In fact many of the times, his enemies were stronger than him. Famously, in the original run he never defeated Dormammu in a magical battle in the original run or Umar. Rather he won though other means and by playing on the foible.

Stern did the same thing with the good doctor winning mostly through wit. In the case of Dracula, it was a reversal of most tales. In it Dracula was the being try to use wit and subterfuge to avoid direct conflict with Strange and it worked because he was much of an active character as Strange.

The problem is that most writers and Joe see himself, see him as a deus-ex-machina because they use him like that. Someone could write down the rules in a hand written bible (which fans have done in the past to write their own rpgs and writers in handbooks) and future writers will still ignore them because they just want to. The last writer who was supposed to establish rules was the Bendis himself and he didn't do that. If anything he did the opposite, muddying up what came before in the name of speculation and talk. Rules only works if editorial guides their new writers or the writers are fans.Ootherwise it's not going to work and editorial clearly doesn't want to do that.

Also rules don't make a story good like DigiCom said. I'm reading a very popular webcomic right now where the rules of magic is very open ended and I'm having a blast. Journey to the west is incredibly nebulous. So are most epics but they are extremely popular. The value of the story and the scale is what makes it great and DS has a huge scale in the reality. It's just most writers aren't creative about it. He has plenty of characters and worlds. It just most don't do anything with it.

I agree with so many of your points and I'm not trying to contradict them at all. I've always said that I think the VILLAINS in the comic books and in the live-action stuff should be far FAR stronger than the heroes. This prevents writers from making their protagonists overwhelm their opponents from sheer force alone. The only way they can win is through creativity and intelligence and using their imagination and wit. That's why my two favorite final video game boss battles of the MCU were the ones between Stephen and Dormammu and Hex Vision vs Spectral Vision. Because the "bad guys" weren't "defeated" in traditional and boring ways. I think it's important to have rules in any kind of story. I don't mind if the rules are open ended or vague, just that they have to exist in order for those stories to work.

[Eto]

I especially loved the Ditko art in this issue, especially the sequences of Strange traveling through different dimensions. Movie special effects have finally caught up to the imagery that Dikto drew in these comics.

Me too!
The art is superb! Just mind-blowing!
Wow, Ditko is on another level for sure.

[GenericUsername]

Yeah, it could have been handled better. I wasn't there when it happened, so maybe that clouds my understanding of the issue. I just think it's funny that Marvel keeps using "magic" the way it does in order to deal with problematic things in its comic books. It just turns me off from mystical stories by DC and Marvel in general.

I am sympathetic to some of Quesada's concerns about magically inclined characters, be they Doctor Strange, Zatanna, or otherwise. They're written as if they can do anything, or close enough. Never mind having definitive rules or limitations - magic's this free, unbound thing that effectively grants almost unlimited power for some bizarre reason (often times for no reason at all!). Even if some writers don't do it that way, some do. Which works for the occasional plot device here and there, but when you're writing about the magician as the protagonist, it can be a bit of a problem. I think one way to curb writers from making their characters use magic irresponsibly and illogically is to say that magic typically comes at a cost. I don't wanna have characters constantly pulling new powers out of thin air.

Here's a comment supporting Quesada's views:

"I kind of agree with Quesada. It's the same issue I had with Superman, that there's never any real peril, because Superman or Strange will whip something out that defuses the problem by the last page of the comic."

Thankfully the movies have circumvented deus ex machinas relating to magic very nicely as DigiCom mentioned previously. I hope this continues in the MoM.

Magic is a fantasy macguffin and it's difficult for it to be anything but. It's powerful, it's not real. So it really can't be based in any reality. And Marvel is not the company to figure out some balance there. And they did not do that during Quesada's reign.

They've never established rules for it. Stephen is either very powerful or is controlled like in Infinity to be a non-factor.

Superman has had lots of real peril, that's why Quesada is not a good one to make that assessment. He doesn't have a general understanding of characters and their history. His pov comes off like just a general perception of something than actually being well read.

[Albert1981]

Magic is a fantasy macguffin and it's difficult for it to be anything but. It's powerful, it's not real. So it really can't be based in any reality. And Marvel is not the company to figure out some balance there. And they did not do that during Quesada's reign.

They've never established rules for it. Stephen is either very powerful or is controlled like in Infinity to be a non-factor.

Superman has had lots of real peril, that's why Quesada is not a good one to make that assessment. He doesn't have a general understanding of characters and their history. His pov comes off like just a general perception of something than actually being well read.

I think the "rules" Marvel Studios established in the MCU are actually pretty consistent thus far. They have really impressed me with how they used magic in their stories. I liked magic okay in the DC and Marvel comics when I read them as a youth, but the MCU movies just BLEW MY MIND with the visuals. They were so entertaining. And I'm not a huge fan of "fight scenes" and "action sequences", but when magic was involved, I got REALLY excited.

I liked the "rules" that guided the Mirror Dimension in the MCU (made the battles more dramatic in my humble opinion):

"The Mirror Dimension allows an advanced sorcerer to train more advanced and dangerous spells without adversely affecting the real world, keep an eye on threats without being noticed, and a prison for those without a Sling Ring. The final usage is paramount that a prisoner is locked without a Sling Ring as it is the only means to escape. However, the realm is shown to be accessible without the use of the Sling Ring, which allowed the likes of the Ancient One and Doctor Strange to transport themselves and others into the dimension, though a Sling Ring was ultimately required to leave it. In addition, the Mirror Dimension can be used in combat by a sorcerer with the knowledge and skill needed to perform it liberally by manifesting a gateway to it to absorb attacks and then sending the manifestation at the enemy to trap them at the Mirror Dimension, but these Mirror Dimension gateways can seemingly be destroyed when enough power is directed at them, as Thanos was able to use the Power Stone to destroy a gateway that was sent towards him by Doctor Strange.

After the initial attack on the New York Sanctum, Doctor Strange trapped all of them inside the Mirror Dimension just before Kaecilius was about to destroy the place. Karl Mordo informed Strange that the Zealots' connection to the Dark Dimension made them even stronger in the Mirror Dimension. Realizing that their plan backfired, Mordo and Strange tried to escape. However, Kaecilius made their escape harder for them by warping reality to the point where navigation became very difficult.

While on Titan, Doctor Strange had opened a gateway to the Mirror Dimension to protect himself against an energy blast from the Power Stone unleashed by Thanos and then sent the gateway at the warlord to try and trap him only for the Titan to shatter the dimensional gate via the Power Stone before using the Space Stone to collapse the remnants into a destructive black hole that he threw at the sorcerer."

I guess the Quesada years were bad ones for Marvel magic fans? The way Marvel editors regarded it during his time there makes me believe that they didn't have a whole lot of respect for it. Weren't Bendis and Quesada more interested in the "crime" sector of the Marvel Universe dealing with characters like the Punisher, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Luke Cage, Spider-Man and a new character I've only discovered recently (Jessica Jones)? You know, NYC street level stuff? Maybe they shoulda stuck to that kind of thing. I'm not sure if you like those kinds of characters because you've made it clear to me your contempt for the true crime genre and the various police procedurals that have been a regular staple on television for decades (or am I reading you wrong again)?

[GenericUsername]

I think the "rules" Marvel Studios established in the MCU are actually pretty consistent thus far. They have really impressed me with how they used magic in their stories. I liked magic okay in the DC and Marvel comics when I read them as a youth, but the MCU movies just BLEW MY MIND with the visuals. They were so entertaining. And I'm not a huge fan of "fight scenes" and "action sequences", but when magic was involved, I got REALLY excited.

I liked the "rules" that guided the Mirror Dimension in the MCU (made the battles more dramatic in my humble opinion):

"The Mirror Dimension allows an advanced sorcerer to train more advanced and dangerous spells without adversely affecting the real world, keep an eye on threats without being noticed, and a prison for those without a Sling Ring. The final usage is paramount that a prisoner is locked without a Sling Ring as it is the only means to escape. However, the realm is shown to be accessible without the use of the Sling Ring, which allowed the likes of the Ancient One and Doctor Strange to transport themselves and others into the dimension, though a Sling Ring was ultimately required to leave it. In addition, the Mirror Dimension can be used in combat by a sorcerer with the knowledge and skill needed to perform it liberally by manifesting a gateway to it to absorb attacks and then sending the manifestation at the enemy to trap them at the Mirror Dimension, but these Mirror Dimension gateways can seemingly be destroyed when enough power is directed at them, as Thanos was able to use the Power Stone to destroy a gateway that was sent towards him by Doctor Strange.

After the initial attack on the New York Sanctum, Doctor Strange trapped all of them inside the Mirror Dimension just before Kaecilius was about to destroy the place. Karl Mordo informed Strange that the Zealots' connection to the Dark Dimension made them even stronger in the Mirror Dimension. Realizing that their plan backfired, Mordo and Strange tried to escape. However, Kaecilius made their escape harder for them by warping reality to the point where navigation became very difficult.

While on Titan, Doctor Strange had opened a gateway to the Mirror Dimension to protect himself against an energy blast from the Power Stone unleashed by Thanos and then sent the gateway at the warlord to try and trap him only for the Titan to shatter the dimensional gate via the Power Stone before using the Space Stone to collapse the remnants into a destructive black hole that he threw at the sorcerer."

I guess the Quesada years were bad ones for Marvel magic fans? The way Marvel editors regarded it during his time there makes me believe that they didn't have a whole lot of respect for it. Weren't Bendis and Quesada more interested in the "crime" sector of the Marvel Universe dealing with characters like the Punisher, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Luke Cage, Spider-Man and a new character I've only discovered recently (Jessica Jones)? You know, NYC street level stuff? Maybe they shoulda stuck to that kind of thing. I'm not sure if you like those kinds of characters because you've made it clear to me your contempt for the true crime genre and the various police procedurals that have been a regular staple on television for decades (or am I reading you wrong again)?

I hated the sling ring. And hope it was just a part of training. I'd rather have the magic user have self control themselves than to have an anchor like that. Because not everyone that writes magic after that will follow those rules. It's already happening with the different practices of magic. Self accountability is more important to me.

I think that era of creators were better at street level characters. Comics in general in the past 20 years have tried to be more realistic instead of fantasy. And it doesn't work for me. These people have powers, and live in a different reality than us. It's fiction. It's ok for it to be fake. It's ok to use imagination and not have stuff rooted in our reality.

[Albert1981]

I hated the sling ring. And hope it was just a part of training. I'd rather have the magic user have self control themselves than to have an anchor like that. Because not everyone that writes magic after that will follow those rules. It's already happening with the different practices of magic. Self accountability is more important to me.

I think that era of creators were better at street level characters. Comics in general in the past 20 years have tried to be more realistic instead of fantasy. And it doesn't work for me. These people have powers, and live in a different reality than us. It's fiction. It's ok for it to be fake. It's ok to use imagination and not have stuff rooted in our reality.

I think self accountability is a good "rule" in itself. Personally I think these heroes need to show some self-control and restraint. Bilbo could have EASILY killed Gollum in the Hobbit. But he didn't. Gandalf (and Tolkien) emphasize that Bilbo was able to take so little harm from the Ring because of the way he began his ownership—with an act of “pity and mercy,” the sparing of Gollum’s life. He was rewarded for this by resisting its power relatively effectively for a long period. Obviously, this impacted the whole saga, since Gollum was critical to the mission of destroying the Ring. Had Bilbo struck down Gollum in rage, he might have succumbed to the Ring’s power much, much earlier, becoming progressively “Gollum-like,” a being hated by his neighbors and using his powers for petty, evil purposes. Instead of the “kind and weird” Mr. Bilbo, he would have become the “terrible and weird” Mr. Bilbo.

That's why I'm a little bit concerned that Wanda subjected Agatha to a form of "mind rape" after she gained her powers following the big battle of Episode 9. I get that Agatha was a bad person in the show, but I like it when heroes show empathy, you know? It definitely demonstrates to me a malicious side to her personality which makes me kinda worried about her future appearances. Maybe I'm just being paranoid. I don't really talk about Wanda's problematic actions in her show anymore because it's a downer and I'm boring myself discussing them. I just hope that the Scarlet Witch is a benevolent character in later appearances in the MCU.

I don't mind fantasy. I don't mind weirdness. It IS fiction, so I'm totally not against stories with whimsical elements in them. Peter Pan, the Wizard of Oz, Alice in Wonderland, Pinocchio, the Chronicles of Narnia, the Lord of the Rings and Aladdin (amongst other fantasy stories) remain popular for very good reasons. I just think some internal consistency and the avoidance of too many deus ex machinas will help make magical tales so much more interesting. That's why I'm enjoying the magical stuff in the MCU thus far.

[DigiCom]

They've never established rules for it. Stephen is either very powerful or is controlled like in Infinity to be a non-factor.

Untrue. They've simply never COMMITTED to the rules they've set, any of the times they've tried (or claimed they were going to, in Bendis' case).

They ALWAYS cave to a writer who wants magic to do something else.

[Clea]

Untrue. They've simply never COMMITTED to the rules they've set, any of the times they've tried (or claimed they were going to, in Bendis' case).

They ALWAYS cave to a writer who wants magic to do something else.

Agreed. We've had a long discussion of Marvel's rules for magic here in this forum recently (starting around March 21 if anyone wants to go back and re-read those posts), and people posted links to some of them. Sometimes Marvel editors and writers choose to ignore the rules. Perhaps they're just not familiar with them because they spend 99.9% of their time writing the non-magical superheroes so they're just ignorant about what's going on over in the magical side of the Marvel universe. Perhaps the writer isn't familiar with Marvel magic but they are familiar with magic in other stories or tv shows or D&D so they want to change Marvel to match those other formats. But the fact that writers are ignorant of the rules or decide to ignore them and make up their own rules doesn't mean that the underlying rules aren't already there.

Perhaps Marvel editorial needs to have a magic writing boot camp and remind their own staff what those rules are. Or not. Marvel's goal is to tell compelling, interesting stories, not to codify a magical system of hard rules that any 12 year old newbie fan can instantly recognize and accept.

I suspect Quesada's angst about Strange was caused because Marvel wanted to integrate the magic uses into the non-magical character set and have Strange fighting ninjas and Skrull instead of Dormammu and Nightmare. They were trying to shoehorn an extremely powerful character into a tiny, mundane box. They wanted to use Strange because Strange is ridiculously cool, but he's also ridiculously powerful. His skillset, experience, and power levels make sense on the magical side of Marvel, but dwarf most of the non-magical characters so he seems too powerful by comparison. I think that when Bendis boasted about changing the rules for Marvel magic, what he meant was that he nerfed the magic users and Strange most of all, so that Strange could become just another Avenger.