Would you buy a New 52 Superman book if DC brought him back?

[Kuwagaton]

I think some people are missing the point. The OP mentions conditions for a hypothetical title, how possible or difficult Reborn makes it isn't really a factor unless it's the reason someone would not like to see the title. DC itself has made weirder, more convoluted things happen when they wanted.



Preference wise, I'd like it if it were regarded as a modern day Earth Two. But where Earth One Superman is now the older, married version. I'd guess you'd call it Earth Fifty Two. Overall I didn't care for much outside of Morrison even when the stories were pretty good. I'd prefer someone to run on the Diggle track above anything, because that promising bit was cut short and I really think that quickly became the New 52 Action in a nutshell. Superman volume 3 sat by the door and stood up a few times, but never did get off the stink train.

I think it's counter productive to have 2 different Clark Kent-Supermen running around in the same time line. It's far easier and better to do a short arc from an earlier time, whether it's year one or something similar. Having two Supermen, two Clark Kents only serves to further the divide and splinter the fandom which will forever plague the superline. It will never rise above 50k platue and be competitive against the juggernaut that is batman and other characters with less divisive storytelling.

Another Superman won't sell like the main one, but it's not like Other Spider-Man or Batman Beyond set such a high bar.

[Korath]

Well, you're wrong. New 52 Superman is Rebirth Superman when he was young, and that is clearly established in Superman Reborn. You can't have a 40-45 years old married dad act like he is the golden age Superman, thus my solution with having a separate book detailing his youth.

Similar to how Superman Confidential was, or Legends of the Dark Knight for Batman. Stories at different point in time.

No. What was established was that the post-Reborn Superman is 99% non-New 52 Superman, with perhaps -perhaps- a little bit of the Social Crusader that was the New 52 Superman. But both of them are different enough in tone and character that a book set on his own Earth with the New 52 Superman as a star wouldn't walk on the main one's titles.

[rpmaluki]

I think some people are missing the point. The OP mentions conditions for a hypothetical title, how possible or difficult Reborn makes it isn't really a factor unless it's the reason someone would not like to see the title. DC itself has made weirder, more convoluted things happen when they wanted.



Preference wise, I'd like it if it were regarded as a modern day Earth Two. But where Earth One Superman is now the older, married version. I'd guess you'd call it Earth Fifty Two. Overall I didn't care for much outside of Morrison even when the stories were pretty good. I'd prefer someone to run on the Diggle track above anything, because that promising bit was cut short and I really think that quickly became the New 52 Action in a nutshell. Superman volume 3 sat by the door and stood up a few times, but never did get off the stink train.



Another Superman won't sell like the main one, but it's not like Other Spider-Man or Batman Beyond set such a high bar.

Isn't that two different characters, not the same character but with two versions Co existing.

[GodofBoredom]

No. What was established was that the post-Reborn Superman is 99% non-New 52 Superman, with perhaps -perhaps- a little bit of the Social Crusader that was the New 52 Superman. But both of them are different enough in tone and character that a book set on his own Earth with the New 52 Superman as a star wouldn't walk on the main one's titles.

Saying "No" doesn't make you any more right, my friend. Have you read Superman Reborn? Because it seems highly unlikely you understood that they're the same being, and they recombined into a history that fitted both of their lives.

There is a difference between Rebirth Superman not acting like New 52 Superman, and New 52 Superman not being Rebirth Superman. I hope you can eventually see it.

New 52 Superman was a period in Rebirth Superman's life, and he has matured into the current Superman.

It's like saying your dad doesn't act like he was in his 20s. Well, obviously. But that doesn't mean your dad wasn't in his 20s.

The advantage is that while you don't have a time machine to go and meet your dad in his 20s, fiction is not linear, so you can have separate books detailing different periods in his life.

Beats splitting your dad into two different beings, and arguing which one is your true father.

Isn't that two different characters, not the same character but with two versions Co existing.

It is, and it was awful. It pitted the Superman fanbase against each other.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I'd rather never, ever ever in a million years see New 52 Superman again. The New 52 Superman era was awful. Plus, bringing him back as a separate entity would just cause so much confusion. If they had to, they should do it to at least explain that he was never the true Superman, only a doppelgänger created by Dr. Manhattan.

[Korath]

I read Reborn, and nothing which happened to New 52 Superman could have happened to the amalgamated Superman : his origin isn't the same as the New 52 Superman, being SO, meaning that he can't have lived through the events of Grant Morrison run. Then either the events were simply not acknowledged (like H'el on Earth, no matter how convoluted or weak this story was), don't make sense without some elements entirely removed from his story (Doomed has to have changed drastically since the SM/WW books have been made non-canon, and several elements of Doomed rested on Diana and Clark being together). There was one foes of the New 52 Superman, Ulysses, and he hasn't been used since Final Days, doesn't seem to have any appearance scheduled in the future.

I really can't see how any adventure of the New 52 Superman could be a functioning part of the amalgamation without being so changed that they are basically other events and stories.

[superduperman]

More Superman, the merrier. After Rebirth, alternatives to the main Superman were lacking (Injustice doesn't count ). If you didn't like Superman playing Pa Kent with superpowers, you didn't have anything else to read. Even if like Bendis' Superman more than "Superdad", I'd like to read other takes too.

You know what that saddest part about Injustice is? Their universe actually looks pretty cool if Superman hadn't turned evil. It's kind of like "Ha! Ha! Here's this really cool universe but you don't get to have it because your favorite character is a villain!" It's like rubbing salt in the wound. I don't think bringing back the New 52 Superman would be as awkward as people think it would. Marvel has a Spider-Man Renew Your Vows ongoing for people who liked the marriage. They understood there was an audience for people who liked the marriage and gave them their own universe. Why can't they do that for New 52? Would it sell as well as the main books? Probably not. But could it stand on it's own as a title? That depends on the fans. If we're willing to support it, then yes. We already have things like Earth One. No reason to believe that New 52 couldn't co-exist alongside the main universe. It could be DC's Ultimates line.

[Nelliebly]

Then it wouldn't be a New 52 Superman. The SM/WW was purposely sabotaged by Johns and Tomasi anyway. It wouldn't be hard at all to reignite it.

I've no problem with a Superman ending with Lana, but then it just needs to be another Earth Superman, not a New 52 Superman.

Was
Johns didn’t purposely sabotage anything. The plan for Superman/WW was always to be temporary. That was the plan from the time it dropped and, even then, Johns wasn’t really interested. The concept started out flawed and ended flawed and the only re loss is that we never got to see Clark and Diana choose to end things on good terms which, make no mistake, was absolutely what was going t happen. Even the new 52 Superman was still holding feelings for Lois and, had that universe continued, he was going to get the courage to act on them. This was never going to be the great love story peolld convinced themselves it was.

[superduperman]

Johns never supported New 52. I don't think that's a secret at this point. If he was put in charge of "merging" the two Supermen, I'm not surprised it was handled slap dash. Someone on here a while back posted something about going to a con not long after Rebirth was initiated and said that the people at the DC booth said the "real" Superman was back so obviously Johns wasn't the only one at DC who hated New 52. There clearly was no love lost when it went away among many of the people who worked there. New 52 seems to be Didio's baby and there appear to be two factions at DC. Pro-reboot and anti-reboot. Johns is clearly in the anti-reboot camp. That's neither here nor there in terms of this but if he was put in charge of merging the two Supermen, it's not surprising it was handled in a "Nuperman was killed on the way back to his home planet" type of way.

[Nelliebly]

Yes, no matter what, but I would vastly prefer that the whole New 52 history be acknowledged for this Superman, outed identity and all.

And please D.C., don't pair him with his world's Lois. Rehasing again, and again, and again, the same story beats is why Superman is so stale.

New 52 Superman best friend is Lana Lang, and the woman he loves is Diana Prince.

I didn’t care for action Comics 1004 but it’s the number one selling book on Comixology and one of the biggest wins for DC in months. Again, I didn’t like it but those are the facts. Does that mean it was good? No. But it does mean interest in Lois and Clark is high. As it always is.

The ratings for the DC Crossover will, more than likely, also reflect this. That crossover is going to get more interest because Superman was there and Lois being with him was one of the most heavily covered issues on set generating a lot of interest across the board especially, again, from female viewers.

The Death of Superman animated film also debuted to great sales higher, I believe, than any of the other recent films.

You may not ::like:: this? But Superman is in no way stale. Numbers and interest like that simply do not support your assertion that Superman (and by proxy Lois with Superman) is stale. The Lois YA novels being such a big hit also don’t support it. Again this doesn’t have to be your jam but these numbers just don’t support your accusation.

Lois Lane is the only other person to debut with Superman in Action #1. Not Lana. Not Wonder Woman. Her presence as the partner is not just a “story beat”...it ::is:: the story. She existed before Superman could even fly. Clark LIKED her before he could even fly. Continuity will come and go but this is how Siegel literally designed the character. His daughter still tours and speaks talking specifically about how Lois (who yes Is a hero to a lot of people) is like the one non-negotiable here. She will never be “stale” as long as we are still fighting for truth and justice through the power of the press which is more relevant now than ever.

Lana Lang is, quite frankly, a footnote in this. Which doesn’t mean she’s not valuable because she is but Smallville literally proved that the public and fandom views their relationship with a ticking clock and once that clock is up...people are just done. Smallville learned the hard way that trying to replace Lois didn’t go over well and it was only when they started to treat Lois better and focus on her in later seasons that the show rebounded from its truly terrible middle seasons. Lois and Clark literally saved the show and that’s not just me talking. That’s from the words of the producers. Erica Durance saved the show.

The new 52 Superman, in truth, was a confused guy, often written very inconsistently who was harboring feelings for Lois (he straight up loved her under Morrison) but portrayed as too cowardly to do anything about it. He chose fear over honesty (something Superman should never do) when he initially turned to Wonder Woman just as she did when she turned away from Steve. Had his story resolved without a reboot it would have likely still not resolved in a way that was going to make you or any other Superwonder fan happy because Lois Lane is not going anywhere and long term he will go back to her. That’s not “stale” that’s called a consistently written character over the span of 80 years who is both recognizable and true to his design from literally 80 years ago. It will always go back to Lois and Clark because that’s the story that began 80 years ago and she no is not more expendable than his origin, powers, etc all of which she pre-dates.

Again, you don’t have to like it. But that also doesn’t make Superman or Lois together “stale.” The numbers just do not support that no matter how much you want it to be true.

[Korath]

Was
Johns didn’t purposely sabotage anything. The plan for Superman/WW was always to be temporary. That was the plan from the time it dropped and, even then, Johns wasn’t really interested. The concept started out flawed and ended flawed and the only re loss is that we never got to see Clark and Diana choose to end things on good terms which, make no mistake, was absolutely what was going t happen. Even the new 52 Superman was still holding feelings for Lois and, had that universe continued, he was going to get the courage to act on them. This was never going to be the great love story peolld convinced themselves it was.

It was flawed to you. For me, and many, many others, it wasn't, and has far deeper meaning and better message that the Lois and Clark relationship. Don't let your hate for this pairing blind you to the fact that Soule did such an incredible job at portraying genuine love between the two that DC had to bring Tomasi, Johns and Rucka to destroy it, and have since refused consistently to even portray Superman and Wonder Woman in any friendly disposition, to the point that their interactions are now dry and extremely sad to read about.

Plus, I loath the very idea of "Lois is the only girl for any Superman in the Multiverse". It's the kind of dumbness that doesn't uplift the franchise, to say the least.

And I would like to point out that the enthusiasm to the Superwonder is proof enough that it has legs to sustain itself just as long as the more ancient Clois pairing.

[Miles To Go]

Marvel has a Spider-Man Renew Your Vows ongoing for people who liked the marriage

Renew Your Vows didn't sell that well and it's now been cancelled, but the Spider-Man newspaper strip still has Peter and MJ married.

[misslane]

I didn’t care for action Comics 1004 but it’s the number one selling book on Comixology and one of the biggest wins for DC in months. Again, I didn’t like it but those are the facts. Does that mean it was good? No. But it does mean interest in Lois and Clark is high. As it always is.

The ratings for the DC Crossover will, more than likely, also reflect this. That crossover is going to get more interest because Superman was there and Lois being with him was one of the most heavily covered issues on set generating a lot of interest across the board especially, again, from female viewers.

The Death of Superman animated film also debuted to great sales higher, I believe, than any of the other recent films.

You may not ::like:: this? But Superman is in no way stale. Numbers and interest like that simply do not support your assertion that Superman (and by proxy Lois with Superman) is stale. The Lois YA novels being such a big hit also don’t support it. Again this doesn’t have to be your jam but these numbers just don’t support your accusation.

Lois Lane is the only other person to debut with Superman in Action #1. Not Lana. Not Wonder Woman. Her presence as the partner is not just a “story beat”...it ::is:: the story. She existed before Superman could even fly. Clark LIKED her before he could even fly. Continuity will come and go but this is how Siegel literally designed the character. His daughter still tours and speaks talking specifically about how Lois (who yes Is a hero to a lot of people) is like the one non-negotiable here. She will never be “stale” as long as we are still fighting for truth and justice through the power of the press which is more relevant now than ever.

Lana Lang is, quite frankly, a footnote in this. Which doesn’t mean she’s not valuable because she is but Smallville literally proved that the public and fandom views their relationship with a ticking clock and once that clock is up...people are just done. Smallville learned the hard way that trying to replace Lois didn’t go over well and it was only when they started to treat Lois better and focus on her in later seasons that the show rebounded from its truly terrible middle seasons. Lois and Clark literally saved the show and that’s not just me talking. That’s from the words of the producers. Erica Durance saved the show.

The new 52 Superman, in truth, was a confused guy, often written very inconsistently who was harboring feelings for Lois (he straight up loved her under Morrison) but portrayed as too cowardly to do anything about it. He chose fear over honesty (something Superman should never do) when he initially turned to Wonder Woman just as she did when she turned away from Steve. Had his story resolved without a reboot it would have likely still not resolved in a way that was going to make you or any other Superwonder fan happy because Lois Lane is not going anywhere and long term he will go back to her. That’s not “stale” that’s called a consistently written character over the span of 80 years who is both recognizable and true to his design from literally 80 years ago. It will always go back to Lois and Clark because that’s the story that began 80 years ago and she no is not more expendable than his origin, powers, etc all of which she pre-dates.

Again, you don’t have to like it. But that also doesn’t make Superman or Lois together “stale.” The numbers just do not support that no matter how much you want it to be true.

I agree with all of this.

It was flawed to you. For me, and many, many others, it wasn't, and has far deeper meaning and better message that the Lois and Clark relationship. Don't let your hate for this pairing blind you to the fact that Soule did such an incredible job at portraying genuine love between the two that DC had to bring Tomasi, Johns and Rucka to destroy it, and have since refused consistently to even portray Superman and Wonder Woman in any friendly disposition, to the point that their interactions are now dry and extremely sad to read about.

Plus, I loath the very idea of "Lois is the only girl for any Superman in the Multiverse". It's the kind of dumbness that doesn't uplift the franchise, to say the least.

And I would like to point out that the enthusiasm to the Superwonder is proof enough that it has legs to sustain itself just as long as the more ancient Clois pairing.

I disagree with all of this. I'm also pleased that Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor's romantic relationship has had a resurgence.

[Nelliebly]

It was flawed to you. For me, and many, many others, it wasn't, and has far deeper meaning and better message that the Lois and Clark relationship. Don't let your hate for this pairing blind you to the fact that Soule did such an incredible job at portraying genuine love between the two that DC had to bring Tomasi, Johns and Rucka to destroy it, and have since refused consistently to even portray Superman and Wonder Woman in any friendly disposition, to the point that their interactions are now dry and extremely sad to read about.

Plus, I loath the very idea of "Lois is the only girl for any Superman in the Multiverse". It's the kind of dumbness that doesn't uplift the franchise, to say the least.

And I would like to point out that the enthusiasm to the Superwonder is proof enough that it has legs to sustain itself just as long as the more ancient Clois pairing.

The message being that two people of equal physical power and superficial beauty who are privileged in the exact same ways are “more suited” to each other than a man loving a woman committed to truth without those physical abilities. The message that Lois is “inferior” to Clark and to Diana because she’s “merely human” and doesn’t have those powers? The message that only heroes who wear capes matter and are truly equals? The message that women are only valuable and inspiring if they have superpowers? That “equality” is that shallow? That “message” is terrible. It doesn’t really matter if it resonates with you. There are a LOT of crappy messages that resonate with people in this world. It’s ok to like problematic things but don’t act like you’ve found some deeper meaning to the franchise that the rest of us are “blind” to because you have not.

And, again, you can try all you want to try and strip Lois of her place in this 80 year old story by referring to her as “ancient” and calling it “dumbness” (which isn’t a word btw) but it doesn’t change that the consistent act of trying to remove Lois of her rightful place in this story as the only other person to debut in Action #1 is misogyny. You don’t have to ::like:. Her. No one said you had to. But that doesn’t actually mean that she’s the one that needs to go away. Not when it’s her story too.

And I disagree that Superman/WW has proven it could survive as long as Lois and Clark has. Because you are talking about the complete break down of two separate franchises with two, frankly, different messages. Wonder Woman was not created to be the female :artner:: for Superman. You mistake her creation as a female ::analogue:: of Superman designed to fill the same narrative space with a vastly differing message about power with contrast. These two characters do not compliment and contrast each other enough long term to sustain what Lois and Clark have sustained. And it does Wonder Woman zero favors to want her tied to a man’s myth like that long term when she has her own story to tell that has absolutely nothing to do with and is often straight up hindered by the presence of a Kryptonian with equal physical strength.

Does this mean you can’t like what you like? Of course not. Knock yourself out with fanfic and whenever and the occasional AU the way millions of other shippers do. But you aren’t going to make a convincing argument that Lois Lane is what’s “holding back Superman” because the numbers not only do not support that but no one has time for that kind of blatant misogyny directed at either Lois or Wonder Woman.

[Nelliebly]

Renew Your Vows didn't sell that well and it's now been cancelled, but the Spider-Man newspaper strip still has Peter and MJ married.

Also why should Lois, the actual female lead of the franchise, be shoved to an AU status? That’s ridiculous.