Dan Jurgens on Death of Superman, New 52-to-Rebirth transition

[RJT]

Oh, sweet, sweet child.

In the 90s and some of the 2000s, there were four on-going regular Superman titles - Action Comics, Superman, Superman: Man of Steel, and The Adventures of Superman. A fifth on-going was added, Superman: Man of Tomorrow, to occupy the odd fifth week in months so that there was always a Superman title every week of the year. In order to make sense of the order in which these Superman solo titles were to take place, there was an added upside-down triangle printed on the covers that contained the year and numerical sequence within a year. The numbering would restart again every year. Ongoing books like Steel, Superboy, and Supergirl were also included in the Triangles, as well as Secret Files and Origins, Annuals, 80-Page Giants, etc. Other non-Super Family books were included in the Triangles if they crossed over.

I can't recall if Superman/Batman existed towards the tail-end of the Triangle era. I want to say no, as my memory of Superman/Batman was that it came around the time the Superman books went down to two ongoings a month and began to resemble S:TAS. Post-Jurgens and friends era. I think this all started happening after those Millennium Giants stories.

Just a quick correction: only the five ongoing Superman titles used the triangles—even when other titles like Steel crossed over directly with the Superman-titles (like the aforementioned Millennium Giants) Steel would not be part of the triangle numbering. Secret Files and Annuals were also excluded from triangle numbering, although certain one-shot specials (like Superman Forever or Save the Planet) were not.
During the New Krypton era (2008-2009) brought the triangles back, and they were included on Supergirl and the Secret Files one shot.

[DragonPiece]

Oh, sweet, sweet child.

In the 90s and some of the 2000s, there were four on-going regular Superman titles - Action Comics, Superman, Superman: Man of Steel, and The Adventures of Superman. A fifth on-going was added, Superman: Man of Tomorrow, to occupy the odd fifth week in months so that there was always a Superman title every week of the year. In order to make sense of the order in which these Superman solo titles were to take place, there was an added upside-down triangle printed on the covers that contained the year and numerical sequence within a year. The numbering would restart again every year. Ongoing books like Steel, Superboy, and Supergirl were also included in the Triangles, as well as Secret Files and Origins, Annuals, 80-Page Giants, etc. Other non-Super Family books were included in the Triangles if they crossed over.

I can't recall if Superman/Batman existed towards the tail-end of the Triangle era. I want to say no, as my memory of Superman/Batman was that it came around the time the Superman books went down to two ongoings a month and began to resemble S:TAS. Post-Jurgens and friends era. I think this all started happening after those Millennium Giants stories.

Honestly, one of the main reasons I like the DC Universe app is having a place to read all of those comics. Before that, it was pretty impossible besides going through illegal means.

[Robanker]

Honestly, one of the main reasons I like the DC Universe app is having a place to read all of those comics. Before that, it was pretty impossible besides going through illegal means.

For some reason, DC really doesn't want to reprint post-crisis Superman material. They had those Man of Steel trades that were published irregularly over 20 years, but that's asking people to pay often ridiculous after market prices.

[superduperman]

I think part of that is that nineties stuff really isn't all that rare. Unlike silver and bronze age stuff. You can still go down to your local comic shop and find them. Sometimes even in the dollar bins. Subscribing to a service to read books with a double or even triple dollar price tag on them if you were to look for a physical copy is a lot different.

[Korath]

Was there anything said about New 52 Superman ? I really don't care about the rest, but it would be cool to know that.

[Vordan]

Was there anything said about New 52 Superman ? I really don't care about the rest, but it would be cool to know that.

Didn’t like him, gets that some people did, saw the success of Rebirth as vindication that people preferred the Post Crisis status quo to what came after.

[Sacred Knight]

Yet the sales pattern was pretty much identical. Not much of a vindication. The critical response was different but who cares there unless its backed up tangibly? If anything what the New 52 and Rebirth really proved is that you can do lots of different things with Superman and that people will accept it. But its the other habits of the company as a whole that remain the same so things fall right back down. Its not about the version of Superman. Its not about post-Crisis versus whatever. If it was, Rebirth would have destroyed the New 52 in comparison financially. It didn't. They followed strikingly similar patterns. Because its not the version of Superman, its how DC does business overall.

[Myskin]

Not at all surprised Mr. Oz wasn't planned much at all. I still think in Johns' head he was going to end up Jonathan, not Jor-El, but that nothing was set in stone and on the fly is par for course.

Mr Oz was supposed to be Ozymandias. There is zero evidence (but as far as I know) but most of the hints point to it. The tattoo on Mr Oz's employee's wrist (during Johns' and Romita's run) clearly resembles the Nostalgia logo from Watchmen. Also: Oz-ymandias.

I've never seen clear hints of Oz being Jonathan (of course, everything's possible), but I don't understand what the connection between a simple-minded farmer and a mysterious genius mastermind could be. Of course, also him being Jor-El makes zero sense. Only the Oz-ymandias theory is somehow coherent with the hints.

Of course, everything was still in flux in those days, but the way I see it they were clearly suggesting that Ozymandias had had a hand in creating New52 Superman and maybe the New52 continuity. Maybe this was the first version of the plot for Doomsday Clock.

In any case, it is the very first reference to a Watchmen connection in the DCU and - since a Watchmen crossover is such a huge deal that they would do it only to reach something equally huge (like a continuity-changing or a continuity-fixing event), IMHO it is pretty clear that they were already planning how to erase the New52 only three years after its beginning. Maybe they didn't have all the details, but it was something they were considering.

As for Jon - I haven't heard the Jurgens interview yet but (as I have already written in another thread) it is pretty clear that they (I mean Didio and the powers that be) had been planning to create a Super-son or at least a new Superboy for a long time, at least since 2006's Last Son. Again, too many hints point to it including Jim Shooter's statements about DC being in danger of losing the rights to Superboy at one point.

Most of the problems with Superman in the latest decades (the convoluted plots and the bizarre decisions tied to them) are, in all probability and at least partially, a byproduct of endless lawsuits. ESPECIALLY the Superboy subplots. Conner dying in Infinite Crisis, SuperNova in 52, Superman/Superboy-Prime in Sinestro Corps, the Legion in and out of continuity, maybe even the New52 itself - which allowed them to get a New Action Comics n.1. I suspect that even the Jon in the Legion of Super-Heroes thing may have some connection to this.

And these days I keep wondering if they are pushing Jon as a Superman replacement so much because in some years Superman as an IP will fall into public domain. Of course, I may be entirely wrong - I am just asking myself some questions.

[Robanker]

I think part of that is that nineties stuff really isn't all that rare. Unlike silver and bronze age stuff. You can still go down to your local comic shop and find them. Sometimes even in the dollar bins. Subscribing to a service to read books with a double or even triple dollar price tag on them if you were to look for a physical copy is a lot different.

That's not stopping them reprinting other 90s runs. Some halted due to low trade sales, but Superman is their blind spot.

[superduperman]

Mr Oz was supposed to be Ozymandias. There is zero evidence (but as far as I know) but most of the hints point to it. The tattoo on Mr Oz's employee's wrist (during Johns' and Romita's run) clearly resembles the Nostalgia logo from Watchmen. Also: Oz-ymandias.

I've never seen clear hints of Oz being Jonathan (of course, everything's possible), but I don't understand what the connection between a simple-minded farmer and a mysterious genius mastermind could be. Of course, also him being Jor-El makes zero sense. Only the Oz-ymandias theory is somehow coherent with the hints.

Of course, everything was still in flux in those days, but the way I see it they were clearly suggesting that Ozymandias had had a hand in creating New52 Superman and maybe the New52 continuity. Maybe this was the first version of the plot for Doomsday Clock.

In any case, it is the very first reference to a Watchmen connection in the DCU and - since a Watchmen crossover is such a huge deal that they would do it only to reach something equally huge (like a continuity-changing or a continuity-fixing event), IMHO it is pretty clear that they were already planning how to erase the New52 only three years after its beginning. Maybe they didn't have all the details, but it was something they were considering.

As for Jon - I haven't heard the Jurgens interview yet but (as I have already written in another thread) it is pretty clear that they (I mean Didio and the powers that be) had been planning to create a Super-son or at least a new Superboy for a long time, at least since 2006's Last Son. Again, too many hints point to it including Jim Shooter's statements about DC being in danger of losing the rights to Superboy at one point.

Most of the problems with Superman in the latest decades (the convoluted plots and the bizarre decisions tied to them) are, in all probability and at least partially, a byproduct of endless lawsuits. ESPECIALLY the Superboy subplots. Conner dying in Infinite Crisis, SuperNova in 52, Superman/Superboy-Prime in Sinestro Corps, the Legion in and out of continuity, maybe even the New52 itself - which allowed them to get a New Action Comics n.1. I suspect that even the Jon in the Legion of Super-Heroes thing may have some connection to this.

And these days I keep wondering if they are pushing Jon as a Superman replacement so much because in some years Superman as an IP will fall into public domain. Of course, I may be entirely wrong - I am just asking myself some questions.

This is my theory as well. That they knew this wasn't popular (I liked it, but I'm in the minority, apparently) so they were trying to find some way to phase it out. My guess is that the failure of things like DCYou sort of forced them to show their hand a bit earlier than intended. Remember, the meeting between Superdad and Nuperman was changed at the last minute. Jon Bogadanove, I think it was, said that someone he still had connections with at DC told him that the Superman/Superboy lawsuit played a factor in the New 52 and things like ditching the trunks. It's kind of disappointing to think that TPTB are just kind of winging it.

[DochaDocha]

I'm still convinced New 52 Superman was a safeguard against losing the Toberoff lawsuits. As it became more clear they weren't going to lose, they were ready to phase back to many of the pre-Flashpoint concepts.

[Yoda]

The "trigger" for Rebirth was basically Didio having a "come to Jesus" moment at a con when he realized no one cared about the stories they were telling.

DiDio also shared a story with the press panel wherein he wasn’t asked a single question about story at his DC panel during last New York Comic Con. He claimed that was the first time he had seen that in all of his convention travels, and that, when the panel opened to fan Q&A, half the audience left. He saw first-hand that they lost the connection with their readers.

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/inside...nd-geoff-johns

They have said whatever they kept trying to do with Superman and a lot of other titles wasn't working or connecting the way they wanted to and they lost the core of the characters narratively. I do think critical and fan acceptance is important, sales in comics are a weird thing. Superman books definitely have a baseline, but like we've seen with Bendis he seems to be relatively stable and we're almost 4 years out from Rebirth now. They've had one creative team switch, but sales are stable. There hasn't been 10 different events or crossovers etc. to try to prop up sales. Creative teams on the DC's big books have been stable and editorial isn't jerking things around every six months chasing their own tails (with some exceptions on some books obviously). I think this is true across the line for DC.

The market on the whole is changing, but from the looks of it Rebirth did succeed in stabilizing sales and more importantly storytelling in a way that New 52 did not and even one that Marvel doesn't seem to be able to do without the crutch of a lot of gimmicks. Again, we're almost four years out from Rebirth and while they are building toward some line Crisis over the last 16 months, it's a planned storytelling one - not one they are rushing into to salvage tanking sales. In that sense, yeah, I think you could definitely say Rebirth is a bigger success than the New 52.

[Sacred Knight]

The reason I think in Johns' head that Oz was originally going to be Jonathan was that one panel where Oz is watching Superman fight on monitors, and urges him to get up and not quit, as it was something he taught Clark. To me that was always a pretty big piece of evidence, and all the Ozymandias stuff imagery might have been a smokescreen or at the time it was all indeed going to be connected to a Watchmen theme that was in his head. A Doomsday Clock idea that had yet to be fleshed out.

[Myskin]

This is my theory as well. That they knew this wasn't popular (I liked it, but I'm in the minority, apparently) so they were trying to find some way to phase it out.

Well... Yes and no IMHO.
A huge problem I personally have with most fan discussions (and the main reason I've phased out of forums in the latest years), especially the ones about Didio's tenure, is that somehow they all miss the point. Fans and Didio (and Jim Lee, and the powers that be) are not on the same page and it couldn't be any different, because Didio's priorities and the fans' priorities are not the same ones.

Fans want good, compelling stories (or, if they are close-minded, the same stories they already know, just retold once again); Didio's tasks are, among the others, protecting IPs and copyrights, providing standalone stories which could serve as material for upcoming movies and so on, possibly (but not necessarily) by reaching these aims through stories which people would like to buy.

Of course I am oversimplifying, but I hope that the point is clear - most of the discussions about stories (the endless and quite frankly boring grimness/optimism debate; the trunks/no trunks thing; criticism about continuity, costumes, convoluted decisions about secondary characters like Nightwing and so on) are somehow meaningless because fans ignore the BTS of such decisions and Didio or Lee will NEVER openly reveal them - they will simply hide corporate choices behind alleged "creative" directions and play coy. The best people can do is trying to find hints here and there and connecting the dots. Of course, this doesn't mean that the stories themselves are good or DC's decisions are flawless - it's just that sometimes the stories are bad for ENTIRELY different reasons from the ones the fans think of.

Regarding the New52, I don't think that they the Oz thing was planned because the New52 wasn't popular: the way I see it, it is very likely that the New52 was never planned as a definitive new continuity, but rather as a temporary setting à la Heroes Reborn. Maybe they didn't know how to end it yet (even if the idea of a Watchmen sequel had been on the table since Diane Nelson came on board, but maybe it was a different project which became a New52 thing only at a later time), but I am pretty sure that they had already thought about two-three possible options.

IMHO the real reasons behind the New52 were: the Toberoff lawsuits; copyright issues in general (does anyone remember the short-lived National Comics series?); an attempt at synchronizing TV series/movies/comic books (hence NuWally); a standalone updated origin story for the JL which could be used for the upcoming DCEU and the animated movies. Everything else - the return to Superman's Golden Age roots and all of the creative decisions - are secondary to these corporate choices.

I'd say the DCYou can be considered more of a failed event, but again: do we have all the pieces? Because let's face it: you don't reveal Superman's identity to the world if you are not already planning an upcoming reboot and you don't put an unexperienced writer like Meredith Finch on Wonder Woman if what you are aiming at is a quality relaunch (as far as I remember, they were mostly trying to keep David Finch firmly at DC). Also, Convergence had just happened and DC was probably very busy with the recent relocation to Burbank. Maybe DCYou was just a temporary thing; anyway, the Oz thing had been introduced at least one year before DCYou.

[Sacred Knight]

I'm still convinced New 52 Superman was a safeguard against losing the Toberoff lawsuits. As it became more clear they weren't going to lose, they were ready to phase back to many of the pre-Flashpoint concepts.

In the end if that really did have more to do with it than I've ever believed, and it turns out outside forces like that is indeed what it takes for DC to take any chances with the character (and I mean chances with HIM, creating an aged son who steals all the spotlight isn't what I'm talking about), all I can say is too bad there are no more lawsuits from elsewhere around the corner.

As far as the next Crisis event being deeply planned, well, stuff like Jurgens said in this interview just cements my station as being "I'll believe it when I see it." They have no history of planning anything well, just varying degrees of chaos within the process. New 52 defiinitely being on the farther end of the winging it scope, absolutely, but its still highly prevalent in this regime's history elsewhere. If things truly have changed there great, but again, I'll believe it when I see it. We already know Doomsday Clock has created its fair share of problems in this current process, so its still a problem.