How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Devaishwarya]

I would say the responsibility is on the writer to tell the story he wants to tell...which may or may not entail what we the readers think should be written.
In this instance...Yes, we believe there should/could be better interactions/support between the various MU Superhero teams and Mutants...and some writers may believe that too (as evidenced by the pages ElectroM posted.

But...they are not beholden to show or write that if it doesn't serve their intended story.

As these things go, given the circumstances, support has waxed and waned over the decades...it's really not that big of a deal.

[Devaishwarya]

From this week's X-men Monday over at AiPT.

"Just because you don’t like what somebody’s doing, don’t reshape the truth."

As stated by Ray-Anthony Height this quote is so meaningful and relevant on many levels.

[Micabe]

Krakoa however is as a mutant culture to be "superior" to the human one. Many of these arguments are on moral grounds.

What if Krakoa and Arakko (now together) are not the mutant culture paradise "as combined"; they would appear to be?

[Huntsman Spider]

The 'privilege' you talk about is just a human society that is not made for the mutants and the problems they could cause. In our world, nothing prevents all people to live in harmony but the mindset.
Why this need to see the same situation in a context so different?
There aren't so many books about our current problems?

What prevents people from living in harmony, by and large, is the mentality of too many that they, and they alone, are entitled to the benefits, opportunities, advantages, and privileges afforded by the society in which they live. Others whom those people see as not human or less than human do not deserve those same benefits, opportunities, advantages, and privileges that those people take for granted for themselves. That is the mentality that denies people the ability to live in harmony with one another, the sense of entitlement to selectively withhold rights and liberties from those seen as unworthy of said rights and liberties because they are not part of a society's majority population. Juxtaposed to the X-Men/mutants, they are being denied their basic rights to life, liberty, personal autonomy, and the pursuit of happiness out of the prejudice of human society towards their very existence, as if their mutant DNA makes them subhuman and unworthy of existing, and other superpowered beings like the Avengers have by and large turned a blind eye in favor of protecting a status quo that is fundamentally hostile to mutants' basic rights as people, even though they've known the X-Men as fellow heroes for years. That's what I'm talking about.

[BroHomo]

What prevents people from living in harmony, by and large, is the mentality of too many that they, and they alone, are entitled to the benefits, opportunities, advantages, and privileges afforded by the society in which they live. Others whom those people see as not human or less than human do not deserve those same benefits, opportunities, advantages, and privileges that those people take for granted for themselves. That is the mentality that denies people the ability to live in harmony with one another, the sense of entitlement to selectively withhold rights and liberties from those seen as unworthy of said rights and liberties because they are not part of a society's majority population. Juxtaposed to the X-Men/mutants, they are being denied their basic rights to life, liberty, personal autonomy, and the pursuit of happiness out of the prejudice of human society towards their very existence, as if their mutant DNA makes them subhuman and unworthy of existing, and other superpowered beings like the Avengers have by and large turned a blind eye in favor of protecting a status quo that is fundamentally hostile to mutants' basic rights as people, even though they've known the X-Men as fellow heroes for years. That's what I'm talking about.

Zamn Zude!!!.....I dig all this

[Electricmastro]

their mutant DNA

Well the thing is that, as mentioned before on this thread, Stan and Jack were likely inspired by a mutant-related article written by Otto Binder in 1953 which talks about the possibility of mutants coming down to attack and enslave humanity on the basis of their superiority. One can even see traces of the inspiration in Trask’s newspaper article and Magneto announcing his desire to be a slaveowner of humans. If stuff like that is largely what fuels humans fearing mutants today despite Magneto having changed, then the modern writers really haven’t done a good job of properly addressing it, have they?







Source: http://blog.modernmechanix.com/how-n...ur-race/#mmGal

[Huntsman Spider]

Zamn Zude!!!.....I dig all this

Thanks.

Well the thing is that, as mentioned before on this thread, Stan and Jack were likely inspired by a mutant-related article written by Otto Binder in 1953 which talks about the possibility of mutants coming down to attack and enslave humanity on the basis of their superiority. One can even see traces of the inspiration in Trask’s newspaper article and Magneto announcing his desire to be a slaveowner of humans. If stuff like that is largely what fuels humans fearing mutants today despite Magneto having changed, then the modern writers really haven’t done a good job of properly addressing it, have they?







Source: http://blog.modernmechanix.com/how-n...ur-race/#mmGal

Maybe, but mutants like Magneto used to be a radical minority within a minority, deliberately highlighted and emphasized by members of the human majority to vilify mutants as a whole. It wasn't until increased aggression and animosity from humanity towards mutants reached genocidal levels that more mutants came to the conclusion, "Magneto [later Cyclops during his revolutionary phase] Was Right," especially after humans as a whole (and their superhuman defenders) reacted to ongoing genocidal violence against mutants with lukewarm sympathy at best, if not outright apathy.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I answered by saying that they're not an X-Men team but a nation now.

Thats an evasion, not an answer. It's bizarre that you're holding super-heroes to a higher standard than politicians. All nations hide behind desperation to do horrible acts, that doesn't make them right when they do it. It's what's making Krakoa hypocrites compared to humans. It's same the defense we got from Orchis and Bastian.

I know you don't like current stories, but they're a logical response to what has happened since the last almost 20 years to mutants. They're not going to be passive anymore, that's good for mutants and they're still being nice to humans in the meantime. win win

If you'd been paying attention to my thoughts on the current X-men you'd know I like the current direction, however, that's not the same as agreeing everything the protagonists do. This isn't about being passive, this is about not letting the X-men become monsters. Don't use "logic," which is debatable, to hide behind gruesome acts. They're not being "nice" to humans, they're just waiting them out switching to soft power over hard power. Magneto spelt this out early on, his god delusion is on display and the X-men don't care. They're using his legacy from now on, not Xavier's or whoever Onslaught Jr. is.

[whitecrown]

Thats an evasion, not an answer. It's bizarre that you're holding super-heroes to a higher standard than politicians. All nations hide behind desperation to do horrible acts, that doesn't make them right when they do it. It's what's making Krakoa hypocrites compared to humans. It's same the defense we got from Orchis and Bastian.



If you'd been paying attention to my thoughts on the current X-men you'd know I like the current direction, however, that's not the same as agreeing everything the protagonists do. This isn't about being passive, this is about not letting the X-men become monsters. Don't use "logic," which is debatable, to hide behind gruesome acts. They're not being "nice" to humans, they're just waiting them out switching to soft power over hard power. Magneto spelt this out early on, his god delusion is on display and the X-men don't care. They're using his legacy from now on, not Xavier's or whoever Onslaught Jr. is.

Finally a sensible X-Fan. Didn't think there were too many of those left.

[Electricmastro]

I would say the responsibility is on the writer to tell the story he wants to tell...which may or may not entail what we the readers think should be written.
In this instance...Yes, we believe there should/could be better interactions/support between the various MU Superhero teams and Mutants...and some writers may believe that too (as evidenced by the pages ElectroM posted.

But...they are not beholden to show or write that if it doesn't serve their intended story.

As these things go, given the circumstances, support has waxed and waned over the decades...it's really not that big of a deal.

If writers want to tell stories that are standalone ultimately to the point of not particularly looking onto the past or future, regardless of how big the franchise is and how valid it would it could be to drawn on from past stories, and disregard story/character continuity for the sake of telling the stories they want to tell to the best of their ability, then alright, I’ll accept and respect the creative liberties that truly need to be had to accomplish that, even if I’m not fully onboard with everything and don’t agree with everything. I suppose I’m not THAT petty, and I’m sure it’s truly not that big of a deal at the end of the day, like you touched on, given how writers think differently from each other.

That said, while not being a huge Captain America fan, I still like him enough, reasonably I’m sure, and if panels like the ones Steel Inquisitor posted were written as if to make us dislike established beloved heroes like Captain America, as if to “encourage” us to realize why people like Captain America don’t deserve to be called beloved or heroic, for the sake of boosting up how mighty and great other characters are, while using the past of “doing nothing to help mutants” against you, then I’m sure those doing so shouldn’t be surprised if other panels from the past are shown right back at them, or if people like me leave the conversation entirely out of losing interest.

At the end of the day, I read comics with wanting to enjoy them, and go on forums to talk about subjects I enjoy talking about, like comics, and attempt to have enjoyment while talking about them as well, with perhaps some constructive analysis done along the way. People have the free will to have opinions on comics and heroes anyway they like, but I’m not interested in being lectured as to why “a hero you like turns out to be a heartless jerk hole” as if out of spite, regardless of who’s more correct than who, and especially if future writers deliberately ignore past relationships to accomplish more bitterly cold friction between a group of heroes that were formerly referred as like being a family.

[Devaishwarya]

As with many of your posts, ElectricM, I'm in complete agreement.

Certain readers refuse to take into consideration that a single character can have varying iterations as a result of having several different writers over the course of the character's written history...a la Wolverine. And as such, there's bound to be many instances where said character can seem extremely unlikeable or placed in very objectionable situations...a la Captain America.

That's why I personally choose to "live in the present" so to speak. Base my enjoyment squarely on what's presented in front of me. If I were to focus on every single moment, every single varied characterisation, from past writers I would be absolutely miserable and constantly dissatisfied.

[Veitha]

Thats an evasion, not an answer. It's bizarre that you're holding super-heroes to a higher standard than politicians. All nations hide behind desperation to do horrible acts, that doesn't make them right when they do it. It's what's making Krakoa hypocrites compared to humans. It's same the defense we got from Orchis and Bastian.



If you'd been paying attention to my thoughts on the current X-men you'd know I like the current direction, however, that's not the same as agreeing everything the protagonists do. This isn't about being passive, this is about not letting the X-men become monsters. Don't use "logic," which is debatable, to hide behind gruesome acts. They're not being "nice" to humans, they're just waiting them out switching to soft power over hard power. Magneto spelt this out early on, his god delusion is on display and the X-men don't care. They're using his legacy from now on, not Xavier's or whoever Onslaught Jr. is.

How was that evasion? I'm going to elaborate if you need my full explanation. They're not doing superhero work, they are trying to a) survive b) thrive by creating a nation and making a nation is not a black/white kind of deal. Working with the villains is allowing them to make up for all the suffering they've gone through, including what was caused by said villains. Without Sinister they wouldn't be able to resurrect anyone, from the Genoshan victims to the mutant massacre victims. That's called compromising for a greater good.

And they're being nice to humans. You're twisting the drugs thing with no evidence. Do you blame Stark and Richards for making money off of their inventions?

[Steel Inquisitor]

How was that evasion? I'm going to elaborate if you need my full explanation. They're not doing superhero work, they are trying to a) survive b) thrive by creating a nation and making a nation is not a black/white kind of deal. Working with the villains is allowing them to make up for all the suffering they've gone through, including what was caused by said villains.

You're avoiding going into why those specific things are good things for them to other then "survival" and "thriving" as though their only option available was to become super-villains themselves. It's incredibly defeatist and implies everything the X-men did as super-heroes was wrong. Creating a nation is complicated and sure, there needs to be compromises but this is something else. This is ignoring the ethical principles entirely, like its ok to ignore morals and somehow this is good? Actions like letting Sabretooth loose on America aren't grey, that's pitch black. That's something Sinister would do to get what he wants, not what I'd expect X-men to be alright with.

As well as the fact Krakoa ideology is reflection Magneto's ideals more than Xavier's, his gets no response. Did you think Xavier's dream was wrong? Do you think mutants are gods?

Magneto and other villains justify atrocities with "survival," it's what Bastian did. It's what Orchis is doing, as well. The one thing they have in common is that they are villains who think they're doing the right thing but are wrong in how they go about it.

Honestly, none of the examples I listed disturbed you?

Without Sinister they wouldn't be able to resurrect anyone, from the Genoshan victims to the mutant massacre victims.

Which is going to bite them eventually and they know it. It remains to be seen where this resurrection thing is going, as well. With his knowledge they could all have programming that make them his meat puppets when he thinks the time to strike is imminent and they gave him that opportunity on a silver platter.

That's called compromising for a greater good.

That's not compromising, it's making a deal with the devil - metaphorically.

And they're being nice to humans. You're twisting the drugs thing with no evidence. Do you blame Stark and Richards for making money off of their inventions?

Their relationship with humans are far more complicated than "nice." They couldn't even get Wakanda on their side, they're made that much of a mess of things internationally. Wakanda!

My evidence is the incredibly shady activity Krakoa has been up to, why would I trust them on anything right now? This isn't about the money, however, when Stark and Richards start selling their inventions through cartels I'll be the first to say they're terrible people for doing it.

[marhawkman]

What prevents people from living in harmony, by and large, is the mentality of too many that they, and they alone, are entitled to the benefits, opportunities, advantages, and privileges afforded by the society in which they live. Others whom those people see as not human or less than human do not deserve those same benefits, opportunities, advantages, and privileges that those people take for granted for themselves. That is the mentality that denies people the ability to live in harmony with one another, the sense of entitlement to selectively withhold rights and liberties from those seen as unworthy of said rights and liberties because they are not part of a society's majority population. Juxtaposed to the X-Men/mutants, they are being denied their basic rights to life, liberty, personal autonomy, and the pursuit of happiness out of the prejudice of human society towards their very existence, as if their mutant DNA makes them subhuman and unworthy of existing, and other superpowered beings like the Avengers have by and large turned a blind eye in favor of protecting a status quo that is fundamentally hostile to mutants' basic rights as people, even though they've known the X-Men as fellow heroes for years. That's what I'm talking about.

True to an extent, but human greed doesn't need to have anything more than "I want more stuff" as a reason to try to hurt others.

For example: people often think of slavery solely in terms of white people having black people as slaves. the inspiration for this is obvious.

But when you look back at history it's only one example of people being jerks to each other. The African tribes used to use each other as slaves on a regular basis, in fact some of them actually acted as slave procurers to sell slaves to the British. Why? because the fixation on skin color as a defining aspect of cultural identity is an artifact of the US civil rights movement.

For example we have the Hutu and Tutsi. Modern people look at them and don't understand why they were so belligerent to one another. Partly because they didn't leave any written records and thus only folk tales exist. But also because the modern take on racism sees them both as "black people" even though their cultural self-identity had nothing to do with skin color. Some studies suggest that their relation was much like that of the French and English during the hundred years war. IE they were fighting more out of habit and attempting to earn prestige than ideology.

At any rate, from one perspective a person's skin color is about as important as their hair color, eye color, or their height... all of which are other things that in past generations were used to segregate people into groups. None of which ever had any real importance beyond acting as an identifier of a person's ancestry. Which in modern times is mostly irrelevant. Some people don't' even know how to tell which people are even "black". One of my aunts told this funny story about how she'd had a co-worker who got special hiring provisions under Affirmative action because she had dark skin... Except she was a mix of native American and Middle Eastern, and had no African ancestry. But her employers couldn't tell by looking at her what her lineage was.

[Veitha]

You're avoiding going into why those specific things are good things for them to other then "survival" and "thriving" as though their only option available was to become super-villains themselves. It's incredibly defeatist and implies everything the X-men did as super-heroes was wrong. Creating a nation is complicated and sure, there needs to be compromises but this is something else. This is ignoring the ethical principles entirely, like its ok to ignore morals and somehow this is good? Actions like letting Sabretooth loose on America aren't grey, that's pitch black. That's something Sinister would do to get what he wants, not what I'd expect X-men to be alright with.

As well as the fact Krakoa ideology is reflection Magneto's ideals more than Xavier's, his gets no response. Did you think Xavier's dream was wrong? Do you think mutants are gods?

Magneto and other villains justify atrocities with "survival," it's what Bastian did. It's what Orchis is doing, as well. The one thing they have in common is that they are villains who think they're doing the right thing but are wrong in how they go about it.

Honestly, none of the examples I listed disturbed you?



Which is going to bite them eventually and they know it. It remains to be seen where this resurrection thing is going, as well. With his knowledge they could all have programming that make them his meat puppets when he thinks the time to strike is imminent and they gave him that opportunity on a silver platter.



That's not compromising, it's making a deal with the devil - metaphorically.



Their relationship with humans are far more complicated than "nice." They couldn't even get Wakanda on their side, they're made that much of a mess of things internationally. Wakanda!

My evidence is the incredibly shady activity Krakoa has been up to, why would I trust them on anything right now? This isn't about the money, however, when Stark and Richards start selling their inventions through cartels I'll be the first to say they're terrible people for doing it.

All of your evidence and reasonings fall flat when you don't take into consideration what was happening until a few months ago in their universe. Mutants were being killed in the streets. As soon as the X-men were out of the game humans tried to essentially eradicate the mutant gene away. Add Genosha, Decimation era and the T-Mists to that and are we really asking them to look for another option and not to take a more drastic change? Especially when they're also able to still be good to humans and live in a peaceful environment. Should they let other children be killed so they can look good to human eyes? Please. There's plenty examples why a change was needed.

Sending Sabretooth was a mistake and he was punished for it. Also, the X-men have had kill squads since around Decimation. Next.


All the shadiness you mention is also pretty much A) your opinions and suppositions B) taken out of context again.

The drugs are doing good. Talking with Cartels is letting them save mutant children from their home lands who would either kill them or turn them into child soldiers. Is that bad for you?

Wakanda is not recognizing them because they don't need the drugs, don't twist this one too. And Wakandans have always been very close and skepticals towards outsiders. It makes sense.

Reed and Tony are also the reason why Orchis is able to do what it's doing btw.