Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2022

[Refrax5]

Hawkman being a stand-in for conservatives was a thing long before Johns but honestly I don't feel like it was that present with Johns' Carter because he was fairly progressive and worldly.

I don't think Johns wrote him as over-the-top in a solo capacity compared to flashbacks or second-hand accounts in Wally's book, but that was before Johns settled on modern Barry's personality, which I think is reflected in Grant Gustin's Barry.

I guess it just didn't feel that way to me? Even if he wrote it explicitly in text.

Well, we can argue about the necessity of Simon's existence or the execution, but from a personal standpoint I'd say it made me invested in Simon's story...so I guess it did something right .

I feel like it's more incidental than intentional. And, again, I just have never found his characters all that right wing.

I mean, if you say so. But there are so many examples of it that I think it's pretty ludicrous to think it's just a coincidence. Even if Johns himself isn't right wing, he definitely has a military/cop fetish and isn't exactly sensitive to gay people or....you know, people that don't like to see John and Hal committing or defending war crimes.

And yeah, making it a point to have Barry and Wally super into the death penalty and Barry saying he habitually covers for his cop friends when they do something wrong....boy oh boy. Not a fan of Barry stating that he sees justice entirely in black and white and that he's never felt guilty in his life. It's just stupid, gross writing. I get that you like the guy's writing, but these are a small sample of the endless examples of this shit in his stories.

[Hol]

Johns specifically portrayed Carter as a conservative. I don't recall if there was anything like that in JSA, but Johns was a better writer then.

And I know Barry works with the police, but he was never depicted as having such an over-the-top cop personality before Johns. He's not some hard-boiled street cop. He's a dorky lab guy. No other adaptation of Flash does this. The show, for all it's flaws, didn't turn Barry into some law enforcement stereotype. The only time Johns wrote Barry properly was in his otherwise dreadful New 52 Justice League.

Johns had it specifically written that Coast City was a military town and when he bothered to write Hal on earth, military personnel seemed to be everybody that lived there outside of Hal's family.

I guess I get what he was going for with Simon but it just came off so badly. It was almost comical. It didn't help that it completely distracted from Hal's closing story in his own titles. It felt like Johns wanted to put his own Lantern OC into canon to make his mark and use in media stuff before he was off the title.

As for Wally working for the police, it's not that I take issue with that in and of itself, but it just is another piece of Johns vision of good guys all being these WASP-y right wing, straight white people.

I don't know man I am a VERY liberal guy and this stuff never bothered me. I don't see anything wrong with being pro cop or pro military. The whole Barry seeing things in black and white though? That bothered me. There is a LOT that bothered me about Johns Barry Allen Rebirth on but being a proud cop isn't one of them.

And again I didn't mind Carter being conservative...Ollie is super Liberal. I like reading about all types of characters and don't need to agree with all their views or lifestyles. Just like when Wally was a jerk in Barons run, Messener Lobes run and even Waids. I like reading about flawed people that are heroes or people with different political views. Maybe thats just me.

[Frontier]

Whatever their political leanings or characterizations, I always love Barry and Wally .

[Hol]

Whatever their political leanings or characterizations, I always love Barry and Wally .

Me too. And Carter, Ollie, Shay, etc.

[Frontier]

Me too. And Carter, Ollie, Shay, etc.

Same here .

[John Venus]

Johns specifically portrayed Carter as a conservative. I don't recall if there was anything like that in JSA, but Johns was a better writer then.

I should note that Johns wasn't the one who started the idea of Carter being conservative. I remember reading comics pre-Johns that stated that Carter was right leaning.

[Refrax5]

I should note that Johns wasn't the one who started the idea of Carter being conservative. I remember reading comics pre-Johns that stated that Carter was right leaning.

You're right.

[Refrax5]

I don't know man I am a VERY liberal guy and this stuff never bothered me. I don't see anything wrong with being pro cop or pro military. The whole Barry seeing things in black and white though? That bothered me. There is a LOT that bothered me about Johns Barry Allen Rebirth on but being a proud cop isn't one of them.

And again I didn't mind Carter being conservative...Ollie is super Liberal. I like reading about all types of characters and don't need to agree with all their views or lifestyles. Just like when Wally was a jerk in Barons run, Messener Lobes run and even Waids. I like reading about flawed people that are heroes or people with different political views. Maybe thats just me.

I'm probably a lot further to the left then. It's more how out of his way he went to beat the reader over the head with that stuff. It's not so much that Barry was a proud cop, it's that he was an asshole cop. A guy who thinks there's no black and white, claims to have never felt guilty, supports the blue wall of silence, etc...he's a bad cop stereotype, especially for a guy that isn't even a street cop. And he never really acted like that outside of Johns.

Wally was a lot more easygoing and described by Linda as Mr. Apolitical during the Waid run. Suddenly, he's pro-death penalty and saying "some people need to die" and making jokes about a gay teammate under Johns. That's not the Wally I had read prior, nor was it a character that I find likable or worthy of admiration.

And while I know it started in the cartoon, turning John Stewart, the most anti-authority GL there was, into a Marine sniper is bordering on offensive.

[John Venus]

I didn't mind John Stewart being a former Marine but the cartoon never specified which branch it was. It's not unrealistic for someone from a poor background even if they were anti authoritative to enlist in the military. His no nonsense attitude worked with the group dynamic and he did show tendency to be anti authoritative and doing things his own way, just ask Aquaman and Despero. But him being a Marine sniper, which was a very recent addition from the comics, does bug me since that means he definitely killed in the past but I'm waiting to see where they're going with it in the movie but my first thought was that they want to make him palpable for their base audience and to show him as a bad ass I guess.

DC has inherently a more right wing comic company. There is no denying that. Their biggest hero is the billionaire who stalks the night in a suit. Superman is either Super Jesus or a model minority. They rarely let WW shine in all her feminist glory. How many non white heroes has had long running ongoings compared to the competition? They rarely let their female heroines stand on their own and instead define them entirely by their relation to male heroes. They rarely lead the way when it comes to representation. The one time I recall they were a little ahead of with the Kate Kane Batwoman and Perez's Amazons being explicitly pointed out to be gay. Otherwise, they are mostly stuck reacting rather than being proactive. Occasionally, you get someone like Neal Adam, Denny O'Neil, Dwayne McDuffie, Marv Wolfman or George Perez or editor Karen Berger who manages to movie things forward and improve representation but then as we saw during the Didio regime, any forward moment can easily be reversed.

[Frontier]

I'm probably a lot further to the left then. It's more how out of his way he went to beat the reader over the head with that stuff. It's not so much that Barry was a proud cop, it's that he was an asshole cop. A guy who thinks there's no black and white, claims to have never felt guilty, supports the blue wall of silence, etc...he's a bad cop stereotype, especially for a guy that isn't even a street cop. And he never really acted like that outside of Johns.

Wally was a lot more easygoing and described by Linda as Mr. Apolitical during the Waid run. Suddenly, he's pro-death penalty and saying "some people need to die" and making jokes about a gay teammate under Johns. That's not the Wally I had read prior, nor was it a character that I find likable or worthy of admiration.

And while I know it started in the cartoon, turning John Stewart, the most anti-authority GL there was, into a Marine sniper is bordering on offensive.

I guess it really just depends on how you read it because I never really got that impression from most of Johns' writing of both Barry and Wally when I read those runs. With Wally I think those issues built into Wally's character conflict, especially with Hunter. And it felt like (to me at least) that writers like the Manapul/Buccelato run and Williamson built off Johns' take on Barry.

Although it honestly wouldn't be the first time Wally was written more conservatively. I think Wolfman wrote him more in that vein during his NTT run, especially when they dealt with Red Star.

[Refrax5]

I guess it really just depends on how you read it because I never really got that impression from most of Johns' writing of both Barry and Wally when I read those runs. With Wally I think those issues built into Wally's character conflict, especially with Hunter. And it felt like (to me at least) that writers like the Manapul/Buccelato run and Williamson built off Johns' take on Barry.

Although it honestly wouldn't be the first time Wally was written more conservatively. I think Wolfman wrote him more in that vein during his NTT run, especially when they dealt with Red Star.

The new 52 version was much more kind and lighthearted than Rebirth Barry.

And just because you didn't notice it or find it bothersome doesn't make it any less true. Wolfman also wrote a pretty unlikable Wally.

[Frontier]

The new 52 version was much more kind and lighthearted than Rebirth Barry.

And just because you didn't notice it or find it bothersome doesn't make it any less true. Wolfman also wrote a pretty unlikable Wally.

I don't view the New 52 version as that much different from the Johns ongoing version (even with the same artist).

I think of it less as being unlikable and more just having growing pains as he comes into being a young adult, which I view as part of Wally being, well, Wally. It was part of his character development.

[Refrax5]

I don't view the New 52 version as that much different from the Johns ongoing version (even with the same artist).

I think of it less as being unlikable and more just having growing pains as he comes into being a young adult, which I view as part of Wally being, well, Wally. It was part of his character development.

It's definitely more excusable in Titans, when he's still a kid. Johns still writing the character as a dick was my problem.

And New 52 Barry was drastically different from Rebirth Barry, who was angry and brooding and shutting out his loved ones. Johns initial depiction of Barry was hugely maligned on these boards back when that came out. The version he wrote in JL was way better and more in character. He was actually a nice, good natured person there.

Seriously. If you read the current Flash series and then read the Johns run, Wally feels like an entirely different character in both. And not in a "character development" way, in a "one of these versions is an unlikable dick to everybody that isn't Jay or his wife" way.

[Frontier]

It's definitely more excusable in Titans, when he's still a kid. Johns still writing the character as a dick was my problem.

And New 52 Barry was drastically different from Rebirth Barry, who was angry and brooding and shutting out his loved ones. Johns initial depiction of Barry was hugely maligned on these boards back when that came out. The version he wrote in JL was way better and more in character. He was actually a nice, good natured person there.

Seriously. If you read the current Flash series and then read the Johns run, Wally feels like an entirely different character in both. And not in a "character development" way, in a "one of these versions is an unlikable dick to everybody that isn't Jay or his wife" way.

Again, he just didn't come off like an unlikeable dick to me. Or at least when he did, I understood why he was and saw it as a point for him to develop from in that stage of his life.

Flash Rebirth Barry came off more like that than by the time of the ongoing. Not that he didn't have emotional issues, but it felt more in-line with how Johns wrote him in JL.

[Hol]

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