Are the days of creativity and innovation over for Spider-Man?

[Majesty]

Ya'll always act like Felicia never takes initiative with Peter or gives him hard realities. She's one of the people that has always kept it 100 with him in that way.

Black Cat has already accepted Peter's duality as Spider-Man. She also isn't playing 'jealous' of that life. She works with it. Did some of ya'll not catch the Valentine's Day issue?




She's supportive of his heroes life, because she understands it, she does the same things he does with a dual life as a hero and as a civilian. She gets it more than most and she knows how important his superhero life is. It wasn't something she had to 'accept' from the perspective of a civilian. It's something she understands fully because she lives a similar life.

She's also never shied away from being up front with him, even when he's having a dark moment where he doesn't want to hear it.



As you see. Heck even in the comics when they went back and added more context to the FIRST time they dated(when he was Black Suit) she was very up front with him about Aunt May, whom she adored and felt like he was taking for granted. She didn't "fall in line" with who he was back then either. Now they've both grown and if anything she helps guide him more than he ever "Falls in line" with her. The most recent issue of them together where she made him confront his feelings for MJ and give her an honest answer because she wanted him to be honest with himself shows that.

But ya'll keep trying to put traits on Felicia that she's already grown past. Her character growth is the very reason why she and Peter work as well as they do right now. So it's about time people actually acknowledged it instead of acting like this is the same Felicia of pre-2002. She isn't.

Always also with the "moral compass" with Felicia. She does the things she does now to help people she loves. The reason she wanted to do the last heist situation she did was to try to save her dying mother. THAT is something Peter would understand as Peter himself bends the rules to suit a purpose and has many a time when he's worked with the underworld, or even his enemies towards a common goal or one he understands. He understands and would help Felicia in that situation. That is what separates Peter from Odessa whom will never compromise her Thieves Guild or their code, even if Felicia's mother's life was on the line. This is what created their current separation. Heck even Mary Jane went into the underworld with Black Cat in order to find out information and Peter has done so with Black Cat numerous times. Her 'exploits' aren't something that bother Peter at this point. Felicia would never ask Peter to not be Spider-Man, and Spider-Man wouldn't ask Felicia to not be her.

As far as a moral compass goes? Felicia had a demon literally offer her the world on a silver platter, but the DEAL BREAKER was forcing everyone she's ever loved to love her back. She turned it down flat. Because the demon was trying to prey on the aspects of who she used to be, not who she is now. Felicia's not the same character she was 25 years ago. She's better. Be nice if the people trying to pin traits on her she's grown past actually acknowledged that.

I like TAS Black Cat too much to think that she can’t work as a hero or Spider-Man’s partner. It’s honestly annoying how people constantly look for excuses on why Peter should isolated.

So true.

[exile001]

I like TAS Black Cat too much to think that she can’t work as a hero or Spider-Man’s partner. It’s honestly annoying how people constantly look for excuses on why Peter should isolated.

TAS was a completely different continuity, though, where she was a very different person to the comics.

But on that point, I love having Black Cat in Peter's life. Spencer's issue where he re-revealed his secret identity to Felecia had a massive smile on my face, like, it's about damn time!

I am 100% up for a Spider-Man/Black Cat book where they are superhero partners and go about having awesome adventures while exploring how each of their differing outlooks and skills help each other in any given situation. A mild clash of ideals, as they're already good friends, with each given highlights to their strengths would be compelling.

I don't see them as romantic partners but that doesn't mean I want her out of Peter's life. People can be just friends.

[Malachi]

100% this!

I really dislike Black Cat as a love interest for Peter because she should outgrow him.

They're completely different people, not in an opposites attract way but in a completely incompatible way. I cannot imagine a situation where they're living together, what that would look like. I can't imagine Felicia putting up with Peter being jobless and unfocused/motivated. She's not that kind of person.

It's always regressive to her character, but writers never do anything to make Peter fall more in line with her lifestyle and outlooks. If they met in the middle, and I don't mean the overused Pete is reluctant to do something fun but eventually caves, I might feel more for the pairing but Peter is never going to make that effort. He never has.

Peter is always going to put Spider-Man first and it's not in her character to be second. That's not a bad thing, it's not selfish of her, but she'd (rightfully) want to be the focus of her life partner's attention and Peter is never going to give that to her.

MJ accepted that (helped by the retcon that she always knew) and even then it caused friction on numerous occasions.

The only reason they keep getting periodically shoved back together is because that was her starting point (and the pairing has fans), but we're never shown why this is good, long term, for either side.

Yes the only longterm relationship that would work for Peter after OMD(yes I am aware of the paradox of that but lets just pretend Editorial allowed it) is if the partner was as malleable as Peter is on living situation and put Spider-man ahead of everything else like Peter does. So a partner that can be poor when Peter is poor, ostracized when Peter is, rich when peter is, savy enough to know when he's possesed/replaced and/or fine with said thing taking place and not suffering any trauma because of it. Would you wish that on any character?

Nah the editorial mandates must diseapear if Spider-man is suppose to grow and change in ways that open up new inovative stories. If that is locked you will get a remix of old stories with the occasionl substitue story being the "new" stuff. Or Peter facing of against villians he hasn't before ofc. Sure he might work as a hot dog seller but lets just agree that such stories are not the subject we are discussing when we are discussing innovative and creative stories.

For me there are several different subjects that somehow gets slapped together into one reductive criticism here. It's possible to reverse OMD and or deal with it and not put MJ and Peter togheter again, the opposite is actually very likely that it would drive them further apart. Tackling OMD isn't about putting 2 people in a realtionship or get them re-married, it's about finally dealing with an atrocious story that still hangs over the title like a damocles sword. Frankly it's a shadow that needs to be dealt with. Peter Parker should not be a character who has a deal with the Devil( of Marvel).

After OMD MJ suffered through several stories that where "insert bad word". Removing the marriage seemed more focused on removing MJ then anything else. Felicia didnt' have a renaissance either, instead she had her Queenpin storyline and like MJ they tried putting her into other books to get her away from the title. The difference is that it worked for Felicia.

So lets try a novel idea. Marvel should just respect it's characters instead of going by chockfactor to keep the sales going. Of course there is the neverending discussion of editorial/company/writer bias that tracks if you ever read anything about what has happened behind the closed doors of Marvel. Or we can just keep listenign to the gospel of Nick Lowe and expect the coming of ASM's golden age any minute now.

[exile001]

Yes the only longterm relationship that would work for Peter after OMD(yes I am aware of the paradox of that but lets just pretend Editorial allowed it) is if the partner was as malleable as Peter is on living situation and put Spider-man ahead of everything else like Peter does. So a partner that can be poor when Peter is poor, ostracized when Peter is, rich when peter is, savy enough to know when he's possesed/replaced and/or fine with said thing taking place and not suffering any trauma because of it. Would you wish that on any character?

That's what whoever Peter ends up with will have to understand and accept. To one degree or another, it's exactly what Betty, Gwen, Felicia, Carlie and MJ all went through, it's not just a post-OMD thing. Peter neglects everything in his life for Spider-Man and pretty much always has.

I think forcing Felicia into that mould goes against her character. I'm sure others would disagree.

[Daibhidh]

Peter is always going to put Spider-Man first and it's not in her character to be second. That's not a bad thing, it's not selfish of her, but she'd (rightfully) want to be the focus of her life partner's attention and Peter is never going to give that to her.

I don't think that's the problem. In fact, I don't think it would be a problem in a healthy relationship. (Also, I don't think jobless and unmotivated Peter should be a thing.)
Felicia fell in love with Spider-man. And it used to be the case that she was happy with the role of Spider-man's partner. The point here is that she always puts Peter first, because everything else she has she gives up to be with Peter. In a healthy relationship each partner sometimes puts the other partner first and sometimes they put their own career and life first. It depends on the importance of the situation. But Felicia's life of her own is a cat burglar. If she's with Peter and gives that up she's got nothing beyond Spider-man's partner. As Kevinroc put it in one of his posts, on I think the Mary Jane/Black Cat 4 thread, Peter isn't good for Felicia because being with him bends her life round his own.

[Tabs]

I mean, he died trying to do right by Peter and make up for his mistakes. How does that not count as a redemption?

After Spencer's patch and the artificial parents? Put me on team "Harry's passing cannot be viewed as a redemption".

[PCN24454]

I don't think that's the problem. In fact, I don't think it would be a problem in a healthy relationship. (Also, I don't think jobless and unmotivated Peter should be a thing.)
Felicia fell in love with Spider-man. And it used to be the case that she was happy with the role of Spider-man's partner. The point here is that she always puts Peter first, because everything else she has she gives up to be with Peter. In a healthy relationship each partner sometimes puts the other partner first and sometimes they put their own career and life first. It depends on the importance of the situation. But Felicia's life of her own is a cat burglar. If she's with Peter and gives that up she's got nothing beyond Spider-man's partner. As Kevinroc put it in one of his posts, on I think the Mary Jane/Black Cat 4 thread, Peter isn't good for Felicia because being with him bends her life round his own.

But that’s how all relationships with the main character work in fiction. You’re only as relevant as your connection to them. You either fill your role or die.

[Daibhidh]

But that’s how all relationships with the main character work in fiction. You’re only as relevant as your connection to them. You either fill your role or die.

Umm... that attitude leads the author writing flat and unrealistic characters.
At a high level, plot and characters are co-existent and if the plot revolves around one central character, then yes at that level they only appear when they're relevant to the central character. But if the author doesn't descend from that level and gesture at a hinterland to the character then the readers are going to see the puppet master pulling the puppet strings rather than a character they actually care about. Besides, part of the plot is the main character interacting with the other characters and those interactions are a lot more interesting and thematically resonant if the other characters have motivations and interests that don't centre on the main character.
In fiction, maybe the supporting characters are supporting cast to the hero of their story. But making the supporting cast interesting and realistic means making them seem like they think they're the central characters of their own story. Or if their life does revolve around the central character, that is part of their personality.

Also, the supporting cast can't generate plot hooks if their life is completely bound up in the main character.

[Majesty]

I don't think that's the problem. In fact, I don't think it would be a problem in a healthy relationship. (Also, I don't think jobless and unmotivated Peter should be a thing.)
Felicia fell in love with Spider-man. And it used to be the case that she was happy with the role of Spider-man's partner. The point here is that she always puts Peter first, because everything else she has she gives up to be with Peter. In a healthy relationship each partner sometimes puts the other partner first and sometimes they put their own career and life first. It depends on the importance of the situation. But Felicia's life of her own is a cat burglar. If she's with Peter and gives that up she's got nothing beyond Spider-man's partner. As Kevinroc put it in one of his posts, on I think the Mary Jane/Black Cat 4 thread, Peter isn't good for Felicia because being with him bends her life round his own.

I keep seeing this attempted at being some point as to why they wouldn't work out.

However

1) When has Peter ever gotten in the way of whatever career his partner has and required that they spend all their time on him or his whims?

2) Why would Felicia have to give up what she does when Peter has been past caring about the fact she was a 'cat burglar'?

Sometimes it feels like people don't really want to acknowledge the growth in characters that happens. Peter hasn't cared that Felicia is a cat burglar or deals in underworld dealings for a while. But people keep bringing it up like "Felicia would stop having to be a Cat Burglar!" Felicia is more a hero these days and works with Spider-Man as opposed to against him and he's been fine with her using any underworld ties she has to help him just in case. So that's a done point for the "BUT CAT BURGLAR!" side of things.

Secondly this idea that "Felicia has to give up everything she is and bend her life to his whim!" if she gets with him. Also, nothing that has been the case. Felicia is a character that does her own things separate from Spider-Man and Spider-Man does things separate from Felicia. She also isn't "bending" to any of his whims. He hasn't asked anything of her to do so. She has been the one asking things of him to be honest and up front with himself. He was the one bending over backwards trying to make their date, and he was the one whom she helped comes to grips with the reality of his feelings.

They work together and they understand each other. This isn't a "she bends to Peter's will!" relationship.

This other idea that "Peter's an unmotivated poor slob and if he has a girlfriend she HAS to be okay with that..." is such nonsense by this point imho. If memory serves Peter has a job right now. And he's definitely not living poor, or he wouldn't be able to set up a resort spa date with Felicia, now would he?

This "Felicia has to deal with Peter being poor." and "Felicia has to be okay with Peter prioritizing being Spider-Man" and "But Felicia's a Cat burglar and Peter won't let that fly.." Are all three talking points that are irrelevant with the current iterations of the characters.

[Daibhidh]

I keep seeing this attempted at being some point as to why they wouldn't work out.

However

1) When has Peter ever gotten in the way of whatever career his partner has and required that they spend all their time on him or his whims?

2) Why would Felicia have to give up what she does when Peter has been past caring about the fact she was a 'cat burglar'?

Being a criminal isn't just another career like any other and having moral objections to theft is not a whim.
Having a friend who has different moral values to you is a different kettle of fish from having a romantic partner with whom you want to share your life.
And Felicia lies to Peter about what she's up to. It half breaks her heart but she does it. Even in that page from the Valentine's Day comic that you posted she deliberately deceives him. Sure, it's a white deception. Even so, it's really not as romantic or as cute as the writers seem to think it is. I mean, really not.
(Besides, Peter isn't habitually unpunctual because he loses track of the time. He's habitually unpunctual because supervillains will keep attacking New York just when he's got somewhere else to be.)

The reason Peter doesn't care about Felicia stealing in the current run is because the writers are leaving it purposefully vague what Felicia is doing right now, just as they haven't bothered to tell us where MJ is in her career or what Paul's career or surname are, or so on. These aren't really people to the current writers. These aren't the characters we know and love. These are puppets and we can see the strings. At least, the things that you're calling maturity and character development look awfully like strings to me.

Secondly this idea that "Felicia has to give up everything she is and bend her life to his whim!" if she gets with him. Also, nothing that has been the case. Felicia is a character that does her own things separate from Spider-Man and Spider-Man does things separate from Felicia. She also isn't "bending" to any of his whims. He hasn't asked anything of her to do so. She has been the one asking things of him to be honest and up front with himself. He was the one bending over backwards trying to make their date, and he was the one whom she helped comes to grips with the reality of his feelings.

That's kind of my point. She was doing her own things separate from Peter in Jed Mackay's series, and now she is not. Instead her miniseries with MJ has her motivated by what Peter would want and what she thinks MJ would think about her being with Peter.
And, yes, Felicia is asking Peter to be honest and upfront with himself and she is helping him come to grips with the reality of his feelings. Kelley was writing her as being all about Peter's manpain. At least Jed Mackay in the MJ/Black Cat miniseries has Felicia worrying a bit about her own and MJ's feelings.

[Daibhidh]

Tempting as it is to blame Zeb Wells for mischaracterising Felicia, I don't think it's his fault. He hasn't been writing much Felicia/Peter. And I think there's a good reason for that.
The story Wells wants to tell is the tragedy or pathos of how did Peter split up from the love of his life MJ. And it's a bit hard to land the emotional beats of that tragedy if you've already established that Peter is hooked up with Felicia; and MJ may not have been really the love of his life after all.
The whole thing is a bit of a mess really.

[Kevinroc]

Tempting as it is to blame Zeb Wells for mischaracterising Felicia, I don't think it's his fault. He hasn't been writing much Felicia/Peter. And I think there's a good reason for that.
The story Wells wants to tell is the tragedy or pathos of how did Peter split up from the love of his life MJ. And it's a bit hard to land the emotional beats of that tragedy if you've already established that Peter is hooked up with Felicia; and MJ may not have been really the love of his life after all.
The whole thing is a bit of a mess really.

I never wanted this thread to devolve fully into shipping wars, but I suppose it was inevitable. The writing for this whole situation feels like it was done by an amateur.

There wasn't enough time devoted to this grand tragedy and how miserable Peter was before Felicia entered the picture and the romance was rushed, mostly handled off-panel, with Editorial having to tell us that things between her and Peter are "heating up." It undercuts the central theme of tragedy if Peter is moving on and totally cool with how things are. Sure, MJ was seemingly the love of his life, but what if she wasn't and he's putting the past behind him?

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of this came down from Editorial. And its essentially reduced the Spider-Man fandom to shipping wars to cover up how creatively bankrupt this franchise is.

[Alex_Of_X]

Tempting as it is to blame Zeb Wells for mischaracterising Felicia, I don't think it's his fault. He hasn't been writing much Felicia/Peter. And I think there's a good reason for that.
The story Wells wants to tell is the tragedy or pathos of how did Peter split up from the love of his life MJ. And it's a bit hard to land the emotional beats of that tragedy if you've already established that Peter is hooked up with Felicia; and MJ may not have been really the love of his life after all.
The whole thing is a bit of a mess really.

That's one reading of the story, certainly. I agree that it's the current story's goal--#21-#26.

But if we look at the run from a bird's eye view, I think the point was to knock Peter down to square one--no job, no support system, heroic or otherwise, and no MJ--and see him grow from there. See him succeed in reestablishing some relationships (Aunt May), fail in reestablishing others (MJ), and forge some entirely new ones (Norman Osborn).

[Kevinroc]

That's one reading of the story, certainly. I agree that it's the current story's goal--#21-#26.

But if we look at the run from a bird's eye view, I think the point was to knock Peter down to square one--no job, no support system, heroic or otherwise, and no MJ--and see him grow from there. See him succeed in reestablishing some relationships (Aunt May), fail in reestablishing others (MJ), and forge some entirely new ones (Norman Osborn).

The relationship between Peter and his supporting cast has been both underdeveloped and completely rushed. Peter has, more or less, been working for Norman since #2 of the current volume.

The Aunt May stuff doesn't work at all because we don't know why she was mad at him in the first place. The forgiveness scene in #5 rings hollow as a result of that.

MJ's got it the worst (outside of Ben Reilly, obviously). It really feels like Editorial went "what if we did shipping wars between Peter x MJ and Peter x Felicia" instead of actually building on this tragedy of two people in love who have to be separated.

But these are problems with this run. Although you could argue the problems with this run are a microcosm with the problems with Spider-Man as a whole.

[Alex_Of_X]

The relationship between Peter and his supporting cast has been both underdeveloped and completely rushed. Peter has, more or less, been working for Norman since #2 of the current volume.

The Aunt May stuff doesn't work at all because we don't know why she was mad at him in the first place. The forgiveness scene in #5 rings hollow as a result of that.

MJ's got it the worst (outside of Ben Reilly, obviously). It really feels like Editorial went "what if we did shipping wars between Peter x MJ and Peter x Felicia" instead of actually building on this tragedy of two people in love who have to be separated.

But these are problems with this run. Although you could argue the problems with this run are a microcosm with the problems with Spider-Man as a whole.

I hear loud and clear that the execution is falling short for you. But I was talking intent, or what I surmise it to be.

For the first arc, Peter is entirely on his own against Tombstone. He's reeling. Black Cat, btw, is the only one giving him the time of day. The how of it all is secondary; it's a cold open (we're getting answers now, and again, whether the timing is right is a question of execution).

It's certainly an ask to change the status quo "52" style, and have the readers wait for answers. Really, from there on it's all execution. But I don't think the underlying concept is rotten