Wonder Woman #11 SPOILERS & DISCUSSION

[SiegePerilous02]

As someone who likes parts of the Azxarello run and dislikes other parts of it, I cant say im too bothered by this. True, Azzarello had a reboot, but he still injected a lot of sexist tropes that the character was specifically created to subvert, with DC making a big hooplah about "fixing" her in the process. Morrison updated and deconstructed Wonder Woman's classical and queer themes much more effectively. It could be argued that DC's entire approach to the character, especially the Amazons, was disrespectful

Is it disrespectful? Probably. But, outside of the Azzarello run, New 52 WW didnt seem like a passion project for anyone involved. It was a contradictory mess. Retcons and ignoring stuff was always on the table. There was no other way to get rid of yhe Donna mess. Diana's not god of war anymore? Who cares? Nobody did anything noteworthy with it anyway.

[Gaelforce]

I haven't read the issue yet but Bleeding Cool's recap said that Wonder Woman never returned to the real Paradise Island (Themyscira) since she left for man's world. If that recap is accurate that Diana never returned to the real Themyscira then wouldn't that discredit more than just Azz and Finch's run but big portions of the Simone, Jiminez, Loebs, Perez and even Rucka 1 runs?

Just curious.

Pre-52 (Simone, Jimenez, Perez, Rucka), Themyscira was advanced and idyllic. Hippolyta was a brunette and Philipus was her General, Diana was sculpted from clay.

Nu-52 (Azzarello, Finch) Themyscira was less advanced (no columns, no art) and somewhat barbaric. Hippolyta was a blonde and there was no Philipus. Diana was the daughter of Zeus.

Rebirth (Rucka) Azzarello/Finch Themyscira was all a lie (we don't know how/why yet), which would mean (most likely) that the pre-52 Themyscira (the current Rucka year one story) is what's true.

[Gaelforce]

Technically I don't think so. Because it was a reboot. It did not riff off an already established continuity as he is doing now . All origin stories I would think have their own elements with similar themes. Not all are the same. So no Azzarello simply told his Wonder Woman story how he sees it with a new origin. It is not pre new 52 Diana he undid. That was long already done by DC before they rebooted. Rucka on the other hand is coming into new 52 continuity and undoing new 52 Diana.

Respectfully, I disagree. Azzarello himself said it wasn't a reboot, and instead he made somewhat of a mockery of Diana for being so naive as to believe the 'sculpted from clay' story she had grown up with. That there had been numerous storylines over the years dealing with her clay nature didn't seem to matter at the time. There were numerous jabs at the pre-52 Amazons and Diana's origin/history that were somewhat disrespectful, imo, so seeing Rucka reveal that it was Azzarello's origin this whole time that was the lie seems a bit fitting to me.

The whole of the Nu52 has been revealed across the DCU as a 'fake' five years that replaced the 'real' ten years that most of them had forgotten. Diana is just getting to see through it all, which I love.

[Outside_85]

Respectfully, I disagree. Azzarello himself said it wasn't a reboot, and instead he made somewhat of a mockery of Diana for being so naive as to believe the 'sculpted from clay' story she had grown up with. That there had been numerous storylines over the years dealing with her clay nature didn't seem to matter at the time. There were numerous jabs at the pre-52 Amazons and Diana's origin/history that were somewhat disrespectful, imo, so seeing Rucka reveal that it was Azzarello's origin this whole time that was the lie seems a bit fitting to me.

The whole of the Nu52 has been revealed across the DCU as a 'fake' five years that replaced the 'real' ten years that most of them had forgotten. Diana is just getting to see through it all, which I love.

He did however have a in-universe mandate to do so in Flashpoint. Rucka does not atm.

[Fenix]

So...is all of Nu52 WW retconned or just the Amazons part?

[Gaelforce]

He did however have a in-universe mandate to do so in Flashpoint. Rucka does not atm.

What in-universe mandate did he have to completely re-write her origin, the nature of the Amazons and her reasons for becoming Wonder Woman?

Everything I've heard says he was the one who pitched the idea to Didio. I haven't heard anyone say DC told him to do all of this. Did I miss something?

[Gaelforce]

So...is all of Nu52 WW retconned or just the Amazons part?

This remains to be seen.

Again, the entire concept of 'Rebirth' is that 10 years had been 'removed' from the history of the DCU and 'replaced' with the five years of the nu52.

[Outside_85]

What in-universe mandate did he have to completely re-write her origin, the nature of the Amazons and her reasons for becoming Wonder Woman?

Everything I've heard says he was the one who pitched the idea to Didio. I haven't heard anyone say DC told him to do all of this. Did I miss something?

Flashpoint... which rewrote just about everyone's pasts and origins.

[Koriand'r]

What in-universe mandate did he have to completely re-write her origin, the nature of the Amazons and her reasons for becoming Wonder Woman?

Everything I've heard says he was the one who pitched the idea to Didio. I haven't heard anyone say DC told him to do all of this. Did I miss something?

No, but one of the provisions of Greg Rucka's return was he had complete authority to do whatever he wanted.

OMG this issue was excellent! I lol'd when Diana called New 52 Themyscira a parody. Etta and Steve were both amazing! I'd say a lot more but I'm on my phone.

[Lemurion]

If you take the idea that she had to give up everything to leave then it makes total sense that she never actually went back. It doesn't necessarily invalidate any stories, though it does imply a different meaning for at least some of them.

[Gaelforce]

Flashpoint... which rewrote just about everyone's pasts and origins.

Who had their past and origins changed?

Green Lantern and Batman, for example, didn't skip a beat - both had ongoing storylines that just continued on after Nu-52.

No other member of the JL had their origin changed with the possible exception of Cyborg whose origin was shifted to fit him in with the JL plotline (it wasn't a lab accident that blew him up but Darkseid, and Apokoliptan tech was integrated into his circuitry)

Aquaman? Still living at his father's lighthouse, the offspring of a human and an Atlantean. Dad still the friendly lighthouse keeper. Mera still the loving partner.
Batman? Parents killed in an alley. Grew up wanting justice and became Batman. Alfred was still the father figure who raised him.
Cyborg? Horrible accident? Check. Rebuilt into a half-man, half-human? Check.
Flash? Barry was still a police scientist doused in chemicals and struck by lightning.
Green Lantern? Abin Sur still crashed, and he still gave his ring to Hal. Still got the GL Corps, the multi-colored lanterns and the Guardians of Oa.
Superman? Only one who had the change that his parents had died when he was young, but he was still an infant rocketed away from a dying Krypton. The Kents were still friendly farm folks and Lana was still his best friend.

The nu52 did away with a lot of relationships (no more Lois and Clark, Barry and Iris, etc.) but I don't recall anyone origin changing, or the people in their lives ceasing to exist or changing dramatically.

Diana's changes were off the scale at the time compared to others. Mother had an affair with Zeus and lied about it versus Mother sculpted her from clay. Diana was no longer the only child of the Amazons. Amazons and their relationships ceased to exist (i.e. Philipus/Hippolyta). There was no contest. The Amazons weren't murderers, and so on and so forth.

Seriously - what other heroes had their entire history portrayed as a lie and their origin, family and supporting cast completely altered/eliminated?

[Mel Dyer]

It was intriguing.

Not happy to see boring-azz Veronica Cale, back in the comic, though - not unless she's the new 'Doctor Cyber'. So far, and thankfully, pre-52, purple-top Circe does not appear to have been salvaged and hasn't made an appearance, and when she does, that'll be, where I get off the train, again.

Hopefully, the 'big lie' will be that Diana, as in the DCEU movies, is thousands of years old and owes her existence to Zeus's bringing her to life - Zeus, a male. That would be progressive and balanced. It'll be more progressive, when this mysterious 'Jason' shows up, but, we may have to wait for Mr. Rucka to leave the comic, to see that.

Rucka's run was my least favorite. I found his 'embassy thing' boring as Hell, skiing uphill in a snowstorm. Hopefully, he won't make Diana a statesman, again, but will keep her a Doc Savage styled adventurer, with a small circle of friends.

[Outside_85]

Who had their past and origins changed?

Green Lantern and Batman, for example, didn't skip a beat - both had ongoing storylines that just continued on after Nu-52.

Because they were either in or close to the top 10 comics sold each month... Wonder Woman was around 90th. The two books clearly worked, Wonder Woman did not, and going along in the same groove that clearly didn't work wasn't going to change anything.

No other member of the JL had their origin changed with the possible exception of Cyborg whose origin was shifted to fit him in with the JL plotline (it wasn't a lab accident that blew him up but Darkseid, and Apokoliptan tech was integrated into his circuitry)

Aquaman? Still living at his father's lighthouse, the offspring of a human and an Atlantean. Dad still the friendly lighthouse keeper. Mera still the loving partner.
Batman? Parents killed in an alley. Grew up wanting justice and became Batman. Alfred was still the father figure who raised him.
Cyborg? Horrible accident? Check. Rebuilt into a half-man, half-human? Check.
Flash? Barry was still a police scientist doused in chemicals and struck by lightning.
Green Lantern? Abin Sur still crashed, and he still gave his ring to Hal. Still got the GL Corps, the multi-colored lanterns and the Guardians of Oa.
Superman? Only one who had the change that his parents had died when he was young, but he was still an infant rocketed away from a dying Krypton. The Kents were still friendly farm folks and Lana was still his best friend.

I'll say I think the reason Aquaman wasn't changed, if anyone remembered the details, would be because of Geoff Johns writing the book.
Batman... best selling book DC has, not changing what isn't broke.
Cyborg... completely removed and detached from everything that made him a star in the first place, left on the floor for years before actual development took place.
Flash... John's pet character Barry, wiped Wally off the face of the map till they thought better of it, even tried to replace him with a version no one liked.
Green Lanter... See Batman.
Superman... changing an iconic story is tricky at the best of times, also its virtually timeless. Besides the death of the Kents, his mom was turned into some kickass military person and Krypto was shadowing him throughout his life.

The nu52 did away with a lot of relationships (no more Lois and Clark, Barry and Iris, etc.) but I don't recall anyone origin changing, or the people in their lives ceasing to exist or changing dramatically.

How about pretty much every single character not on the Justice League? Everyone who was ever a Teen Titan ceased to be and were replaced with other versions, the organization ceased to be and none of that vast group of characters got to retain their origins because of the shift in time that had to allow 5 Robins, but no Teen Titans or sidekicks for anyone else? Everyone out of Wildstorm? Basically everyone connected to the Dark had to be revamped.

Diana's changes were off the scale at the time compared to others.

Mother had an affair with Zeus and lied about it versus Mother sculpted her from clay. Diana was no longer the only child of the Amazons. Amazons and their relationships ceased to exist (i.e. Philipus/Hippolyta). There was no contest. The Amazons weren't murderers, and so on and so forth.

Seriously - what other heroes had their entire history portrayed as a lie and their origin, family and supporting cast completely altered/eliminated?

Superboy
Tim Drake
Cassandra Sandsmark
Bart... sorry, Bar-Tor
etc...

[borntohula]

From what I read, Rucka said he intended to tell a story like this for quite some time. Even before N52. Will be interesting to see where he takes it next, and if it's possible to spot how he'd told the story before N52. Wonder if he'll go as far as they done with N52 Superman.

Regardless. Quite interesting reading a retcon story. Haven't really read one before (since I'm not very bothered with continuity). I gather New XMEN had a similar big retconning event after Morrison finished up on his story?

[Dr. Poison]

And no he didn't, because he had a Flashpoint clean slate to start from... but we've been around this tree before.

Regardless, while it wasn't perfect, it didn't need to be wiped out, only tweaked.

As for solid story... well this story is only fixing a problem it itself invented. Also this kind of approach leaves this story open to the same treatment from the very next writer who thinks they can do better or have a dislike to whatever this end product is.

If Azzarello really had a clean slate then why did he have to make the clay origin a lie instead of just going with the Zeus origin on its own? Azz said his book wasn't going to be a hard reboot yet that's exactly what we got. He could have just told a good, solid Wonder Woman story without retconning and ransacking a bunch of things(i.e. the Amazons, turning Orion into a creeper, etc.). While I liked Finch's run, she was editorially mandated to bring Donna back as a villain which didn't sit well in a lot of reader's eyes. Plus, as much as I liked the Finchs' run overall, their revamps of Aegeus and Dr. Poison were lackluster to say the least. Now DC can jettison the savage Amazons, adulterous Hippolyta, creeper Orion, Hecate-created Donna, Russian Dr. Poison, and spoiled brat Aegeus and get back to work on making Wonder Woman awesome.