Secret Wars #4 spoiler

[Random4]

i was able to catch up on issues 2, 3,4

man this really does seem like its been a whole character study on "Reed and Victor"

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

What 'let the many die' are we talking about? Refusing to try to destroy the Ultimate Universe version of Earth? Especially when we're told that at this late date even that wouldn't have worked? I don't think there was any 'let' about it; their own Earth was going to die, period, and so they tried to save something. That they failed even in that doesn't mean that they were in any way sacrificing their own Earth in trying to do so; they were simply trying.

That's my point tho. Just like they were just left to do all that they could do, in the face of utter, inevitable, and complete defeat, Doom was as well. The only difference is that Doom doesn't let the morality of something cloud his judge in the face of this level of a threat.

They were both in the same boat, but Doom managed to, in the words of Val, "not lose", and save something. My point is that good, and evil, are concepts that have no place in the situation they were in, it's the thru the decisions of two morally ambiguous pragmatics, Namor and Doom, that saving and restoring anything at all is even possible. That's why they don't have much to stand on. If/when they do restore everything to some semblance of stability, we can't just get a "and the good guys defeated the evil God Doom, and restored the balance" type of ending, because if not for Doom (and Namor) then they wouldn't have had the change to accomplish anything.

[vitruvian]

That's my point tho. Just like they were just left to do all that they could do, in the face of utter, inevitable, and complete defeat, Doom was as well. The only difference is that Doom doesn't let the morality of something cloud his judge in the face of this level of a threat.

Thing is, the rest of all those universes died except for the small bits Doom was able to save from the Incursion points. So, by virtue of his actions having caused the Incursions, Doom didn't just let worlds die, he caused them to die. True, eventually the Molecule Men time bombs set by the Beyonders would have done so as well, without an opportunity to save anything (we think, since after all who knows if the same technique Doom used to preserve fragments of worlds couldn't have been used without Incursions happening), but not for about another 11-12 years, based on Molecule Man appearing in the early days of Marvel and the sliding timeline only going 13-14 years so far. Plenty of time to figure out a different solution to that problem, had the multiversal collapse of the Incursions not been breathing down everyone's neck.

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

Thing is, the rest of all those universes died except for the small bits Doom was able to save from the Incursion points. So, by virtue of his actions having caused the Incursions, Doom didn't just let worlds die, he caused them to die. True, eventually the Molecule Men time bombs set by the Beyonders would have done so as well, without an opportunity to save anything (we think, since after all who knows if the same technique Doom used to preserve fragments of worlds couldn't have been used without Incursions happening), but not for about another 11-12 years, based on Molecule Man appearing in the early days of Marvel and the sliding timeline only going 13-14 years so far. Plenty of time to figure out a different solution to that problem, had the multiversal collapse of the Incursions not been breathing down everyone's neck.

If there was another way, wouldn't Molecule Man had told him? It seemed that this was the only way, which is why MM went to Doom rather than anyone else. His way was ultimately the better way, imo, based off what we know.

[vitruvian]

If there was another way, wouldn't Molecule Man had told him? It seemed that this was the only way, which is why MM went to Doom rather than anyone else. His way was ultimately the better way, imo, based off what we know.

It remains to be seen how the 'regular' universe and multiverse come back by the end of the event, though. Since it's not something Doom and Strange have done in eight years, presumably it's not something that Doom could think of or that Molecule Man could tell him about.

[Iron Maiden]

If there was another way, wouldn't Molecule Man had told him? It seemed that this was the only way, which is why MM went to Doom rather than anyone else. His way was ultimately the better way, imo, based off what we know.

I'd have to think that if Doom didn't take his investigation in a different route from the Illuminati, no one would have known to even look for all the time bomb Molecule Men. Everything would have blown up at once and there would be nothing.

[vitruvian]

I'd have to think that if Doom didn't take his investigation in a different route from the Illuminati, no one would have known to even look for all the time bomb Molecule Men. Everything would have blown up at once and there would be nothing.

That is a distinct possibility, since IIRC the only reason Molecule Man himself became aware of the time bomb issue was because of the effects of other Molecule Men in other realities being assassinated, fracturing his mind but also letting in some insight... and that only happened because he and Doom went back in time and started assassinating the other Molecule Men... and that only happened because Molecule Man was helping Doom research the Incursions.... and that only happened because the Incursions were happening in the first place... and the Incursions only started to happen because Doom and Molecule Man were assassinating the other Molecule Men and triggered them... and that only... yeah, it goes on and on. Shades of Heinlein's By His Bootstraps.

But only a possibility, the Molecule Man has been involved in enough stuff over the years that there's every chance that somebody could have researched and analyzed his power more thoroughly sometime before the big boom... which given the 25 year fuse, wasn't due for another 11-12 year Marvel Time, remember, so basically never in terms of published Marvel Comics, except those set in the future.

And of course every single future that's been visited further out than the set date for the big boom, must necessarily have had a history in which the problem was avoided somehow.

[The Fury]

And of course every single future that's been visited further out than the set date for the big boom, must necessarily have had a history in which the problem was avoided somehow.

Your first paragraph about Molecule man was well written btw, a better explanation to what is happening than what Hickman actually wrote.

But with the future thing, that is something to wonder about. The idea was what? 25 years in the future from when Molecule man got his powers all realities would collapse but futures exist which are further ahead, even in the view issues before Secret Wars, we still had time travel into the future, what were they travelling into the future of?

The best and only explalantion is that Secret Wars happened in all of the pasts of those futures, in those futures and they were all reset and everything back to either a-okay or dismal futures what could happen. Or Molecule Man wasn't there to explode, which means Beyonder's experiment was not a very good one.

It's not anyway, according to the story there was a Molecule man in every reality. Which includes ours... where is he?

[Braun Rodman]

I think that this in an example of hyper-space time. the universe is collapsing on a dimensional level above 3D reality so it is collapsing at ALL time at the SAME time. meaning in each individual reality there is past/present/future to entropy, but dimensionally they are all breaing donw on a higher plane of existence--hence why time travel is still possible during this whole thing. Morrison's time is a flat cricle in the Invisibles is another example as is Milton's war in heaven in Paradise Lost (tho it predates the theory by many years lol) where the Fall is told in revelations but happens before and during man's time on earth.

[Iron Maiden]

Your first paragraph about Molecule man was well written btw, a better explanation to what is happening than what Hickman actually wrote.

But with the future thing, that is something to wonder about. The idea was what? 25 years in the future from when Molecule man got his powers all realities would collapse but futures exist which are further ahead, even in the view issues before Secret Wars, we still had time travel into the future, what were they travelling into the future of?

The best and only explalantion is that Secret Wars happened in all of the pasts of those futures, in those futures and they were all reset and everything back to either a-okay or dismal futures what could happen. Or Molecule Man wasn't there to explode, which means Beyonder's experiment was not a very good one.

It's not anyway, according to the story there was a Molecule man in every reality. Which includes ours... where is he?

When you think about it, it only makes sense that Doom is the focus of a time loop because he didn't know anything about the incursions that were happening until one occurred over Latveria. This is another bit of an homage to the original Secret Wars because Doom was in a time loop in that one also. He had apparently died in FF #260 when Terrax and the Siliver Surfer's battle caused a huge localized explosion. He really body swapped with a bystander but no one knew this until after SW had ended.

Don't forget there is still more to tell in issue #5 and we still haven't had the flashback that will complete our view of what happened between Molecule Man, Doctor Strange, Doctor Doom vs the Beyonders. As for Owen, you have to figure he's not around because there is that memorial statue of him in Doom's castle garden. And the title of the next issue is the "Owen Reece died for our Sins"

[The Fury]

As for Owen, you have to figure he's not around because there is that memorial statue of him in Doom's castle garden. And the title of the next issue is the "Owen Reece died for our Sins"

I don't mean 616, I mean our Owen Reece? http://marvel.wikia.com/Earth-1218

[kevinism]

He's someone on these boards. be careful.

[Braun Rodman]

I don't mean 616, I mean our Owen Reece? http://marvel.wikia.com/Earth-1218

http://www.tributes.com/show/Owen-W.-Reece-97116039 <---Found him

[Iron Maiden]

I don't mean 616, I mean our Owen Reece? http://marvel.wikia.com/Earth-1218

You're joking right? I haven't seen incursions lately over my house. Have you?

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

I don't mean 616, I mean our Owen Reece? http://marvel.wikia.com/Earth-1218

Uncle Doom already took care of him 54 years ago, yo.