Why Wouldn't Grayson Re-assume the Bat-Mantle?

[William300]

The whole point of Dick as Robin was to eventually take over as Batman when Bruce was no longer able. Dick as Nightwing was to be a hero away from Bruce because he felt like he needed to do his own thing and do it differently than Bruce. But he eventually realized that he had to become the Batman. The over arcing story of Dick since his creation was to grow into the Batman role which he did but after finishing an almost 70ish year arc to be Batman he needed to find purpose as the new Batman which we didn't get because his time was cut short. This is why I find it so hard to get behind Grayson, it's not where Dick should be as a character he should be leading the JLA with Donna and other legacy characters like he was before the reboot, he should be with Damien in Gotham kicking ass as the new Dynamic Duo, he should be the Batman for a new generation. But no, instead we have a bare bones Dick Grayson that is only sort of like what we had before but not as good. He has no place in the new 52 when the whole idea of Dick's main arc of becoming Batman has apparently happened already off panel.

Agree completely. Grayson lost his place in the DC universe, that's why DC is putting him through this weird experimental stage with him working as a spy. DC is uncertain about what to do with him.

[Godlike13]

Grayson lost his place in the DC universe, both his places, though one was not so much lost it but bastardized, and so they're trying to find a new one for him. Thats a good thing. We should be encouraging them to try new things with the character, not criticizing them.

[Tony Stark]

Grayson lost his place in the DC universe, both his places, though one was not so much lost it but bastardized, and so they're trying to find a new one for him. Thats a good thing. We should be encouraging them to try new things with the character, not criticizing them.

Well said. So everytime something happens to Bruce. Dick should just become Batman?!?! Rinse repeat. Comic fans always want to see new things with characters and this is new and it's pretty frigging good imo.

[dick_wingnut]

Grayson lost his place in the DC universe, both his places, though one was not so much lost it but bastardized, and so they're trying to find a new one for him. Thats a good thing. We should be encouraging them to try new things with the character, not criticizing them.

If we dont like said new things we should encourage them?

Just because he had a mediocre run as a superhero in the New 52 it doesnt mean you had throw the baby out with the bath water. I think just hiring a better writer would have sufficed.

[JasonTodd428]

If we dont like said new things we should encourage them?

Just because he had a mediocre run as a superhero in the New 52 it doesnt mean you had throw the baby out with the bath water. I think just hiring a better writer would have sufficed.

Actually, I sort of feel like his run as Nightwing has been mediocre for a good long time, even before the reboot occurred. Aside of his time as Batman I can't think of a single memorable story of his as Nightwing past his time in NTT or possible while Dixon was writing him nor one that really pushed the envelope with the character or even really did anything overly interesting with him. I'd even argue that until they decided to make him Batman while Bruce was "dead" Grayson was pretty much just spinning his wheels without really going anywhere. That's just my opinion though.

[joybeans]

Tomasi's run was really good, though it was mainly just a transition stage to put him in the cape and cowl.

[Godlike13]

If we dont like said new things we should encourage them?

Just because he had a mediocre run as a superhero in the New 52 it doesnt mean you had throw the baby out with the bath water. I think just hiring a better writer would have sufficed.

We should encourage the intent. Ya not every new thing is gonna be a hit but we should still want them to take the shot.

[SpiderWing20]

The whole point of Dick as Robin was to eventually take over as Batman when Bruce was no longer able. Dick as Nightwing was to be a hero away from Bruce because he felt like he needed to do his own thing and do it differently than Bruce. But he eventually realized that he had to become the Batman. The over arcing story of Dick since his creation was to grow into the Batman role which he did but after finishing an almost 70ish year arc to be Batman he needed to find purpose as the new Batman which we didn't get because his time was cut short. This is why I find it so hard to get behind Grayson, it's not where Dick should be as a character he should be leading the JLA with Donna and other legacy characters like he was before the reboot, he should be with Damien in Gotham kicking ass as the new Dynamic Duo, he should be the Batman for a new generation. But no, instead we have a bare bones Dick Grayson that is only sort of like what we had before but not as good. He has no place in the new 52 when the whole idea of Dick's main arc of becoming Batman has apparently happened already off panel.

That's the purpose of Grayson to carve out a new place for him. If done right Grayson could put Dick back in his place as one of the greatest in DC. Grayson is a culmination of everything in his 75 year history, once it finds its mark my words it'll be considered one of his definitive stories

[byrd156]

That's the purpose of Grayson to carve out a new place for him. If done right Grayson could put Dick back in his place as one of the greatest in DC. Grayson is a culmination of everything in his 75 year history, once it finds its mark my words it'll be considered one of his definitive stories

Yeah it could or it could fall flat on it's face.
I don't hate this series don't get me wrong, but I feel that this isn't where Dick's character should be going. One big thing that bugs me is when this creative team is gone or they somehow leave before they can tell their grand story that they want to do, do you really thing that this concept can stay afloat without them or with a different creative team?

[The Kid]

That is probably the biggest problem with Dick. Becoming Batman is the best endgame for him but you know they're never going to permanently get rid of Bruce Wayne. That's why I think a new direction works because it allows him to do good his own way. Bruce is ultimately too iconic too replace. It's why you know as good as Miles is, Peter Parker will always be there so you need to find another role for him

[byrd156]

That is probably the biggest problem with Dick. Becoming Batman is the best endgame for him but you know they're never going to permanently get rid of Bruce Wayne. That's why I think a new direction works because it allows him to do good his own way. Bruce is ultimately too iconic too replace. It's why you know as good as Miles is, Peter Parker will always be there so you need to find another role for him

The Miles/Peter situation is a completely different can of worms than Dick becoming Batman.
That's part of the problem Dick doesn't need a new direction in the New 52, because we don't really know his character that well. It's all just explained in exposition, references, and assumptions of things that happened with his pre-52 counterpart. We know barely anything about Dick's time as Robin, only a little about his time as Nightwing, and pretty much nothing about his time as Batman. Sure Grayson will explore more into his character and try to develop him further but we barely know anything about Dick's life and superhero career. The main reason why the original Five Titans are my top five favorite heroes is because you get to see them all grow and develop and you can go back see what events changed them and help shape them into the heroes they became. Now we have a Dick Grayson who is sort of like pre-52 Dick but we don't really know why. How much in comic time have we seen of Dick and his life?

[Badou]

But the creative team doesn't have the power to just give Dick's history back to him. I'm sure if they could they would in a heartbeat. It would mean they wouldn't have to completely build Dick's character from the ground up and have a lot more to work with, but they can't do that. So they are stuck doing what they can with the limited resources they have. I personally would do some things differently, but they are doing what they can.

The problem is that aside from Dick getting his history ripped to shreds he wasn't really being treated well as Nightwing. He wasn't being written as this character that was Batman and carried that weight that Bruce carries. That should have put him more on an equal footing with Bruce in at least some capacity, but he was still being written as the kind of character that gets strapped to a chair for most of Forever Evil only for Bruce to come save him like some sort of damsel. I just don't think Nightwing worked, and I don't know if Nightwing will ever work in the New 52 unless there are massive sweeping changes. So Dick had to do something else if he wants to try and get at all closer to being that character who could be Batman again.

All of which is to say that it isn't fair on the evidence to accuse anyone of cynicism or lying about DC's intentions for Grayson. But people taking a doubtful or even a jaundiced view of the situation are scarcely being silly. The next year should give us some valuable information. When we have these discussions in June 2016, it should be much clearer whether DC is really on the path they have talked about with regard to Grayson, or whether this is yet another case of high hopes and good intentions sliced and diced by reality.

That's sort of it. We just have to wait and see if the book is able to do what it is setting out to do. I might not agree with some of their approaches, and I have my doubts about things like Spyral or him being a spy in the long run, but I'm never going to criticize King and Seeley's enthusiasm for the character and their book. They do mean well in everything they are trying to do for the character and I do acknowledge that. I mean I don't want to be in another situation in a year or two where a new creative team comes in and they are having to build Dick's character up from scratch all over again.

[Dzetoun]

The problem is that aside from Dick getting his history ripped to shreds he wasn't really being treated well as Nightwing. He wasn't being written as this character that was Batman and carried that weight that Bruce carries. That should have put him more on an equal footing with Bruce in at least some capacity, but he was still being written as the kind of character that gets strapped to a chair for most of Forever Evil only for Bruce to come save him like some sort of damsel. I just don't think Nightwing worked, and I don't know if Nightwing will ever work in the New 52 unless there are massive sweeping changes. So Dick had to do something else if he wants to try and get at all closer to being that character who could be Batman again.

That's sort of it. We just have to wait and see if the book is able to do what it is setting out to do. I might not agree with some of their approaches, and I have my doubts about things like Spyral or him being a spy in the long run, but I'm never going to criticize King and Seeley's enthusiasm for the character and their book. They do mean well in everything they are trying to do for the character and I do acknowledge that. I mean I don't want to be in another situation in a year or two where a new creative team comes in and they are having to build Dick's character up from scratch all over again.

That's the heart of it, I guess. For what it's worth, both Seeley and King have acknowledged, in different ways and usually in passing, the problems with Nightwing in the New 52. King has touched on the ... issues ... associated with Forever Evil, while Seeley on a couple of different occasions has discussed how easy it is, given what a writer has readily at hand, to fall into a kind of Batman Lite approach. In fairness, I think Higgins meant very well, and some of the things he did with Nightwing as a character were interesting. The Chicago arc especially had great promise, with the very well-drawn repentant, fearful Zucco and a beautiful setup for the great mystery of the masked heroes who had once protected the city and what happened to them. It was scarcely Higgins' fault that editorial interference ruined the story before he could tell it. Having said that, I also think that Higgins was guilty of a fundamental misunderstanding of the character. His Dick Grayson was a person fundamentally oriented toward the past, with all the motive force for his actions coming from the circus or his father's old costume or tracking down Zucco. That's a powerful set of motivations, but they are the kind of thing you associate with Bruce, not with Dick. They just reinforced the whole Batman Lite problem.

As for going forward, like you say the sincerity of the creative team isn't in doubt. For that matter, I don't think we have any reason to doubt Doyle's honesty, either. But we are coming to a crucial point here in the next year or so. It's all very well to talk about how Dick should be an A-list character. It is good that they appreciate and understand why he is different from Bruce, and also why the frequent comparison to Spiderman is flawed. But if they truly want Grayson to assume greater importance in the DCU, then sooner or later he has to be important. Sooner or later his actions and his storylines have to carry weight that compares favorably by those of Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. Which doesn't mean every plotline has to be universe-shattering. The Big Three have lots of stories that don't matter at all beyond the space of their own books. But they also have stories that do. Diana's status as the God of War actually affects the world beyond the pages of Wonder Woman. The RoboBat storyline and Truth storyline both seem planned to play large across multiple titles. If they are serious about their plans for Grayson, then the character is going to have to carry those kinds of major story threads. Otherwise, it is simply an amusing but irrelevant exercise in telling spy stories in a DCU backwater, one that probably will continue to sell okay but that won't ever really rise beyond the second or third tier of importance in the superhero ecology.

[Vinsanity]

Actually, I sort of feel like his run as Nightwing has been mediocre for a good long time, even before the reboot occurred. Aside of his time as Batman I can't think of a single memorable story of his as Nightwing past his time in NTT or possible while Dixon was writing him nor one that really pushed the envelope with the character or even really did anything overly interesting with him. I'd even argue that until they decided to make him Batman while Bruce was "dead" Grayson was pretty much just spinning his wheels without really going anywhere. That's just my opinion though.

Pretty much. He was just too popular to replace. Tomasi and Dixon were the best two for his solo. The rest are blargh.

[byrd156]

But the creative team doesn't have the power to just give Dick's history back to him. I'm sure if they could they would in a heartbeat. It would mean they wouldn't have to completely build Dick's character from the ground up and have a lot more to work with, but they can't do that. So they are stuck doing what they can with the limited resources they have. I personally would do some things differently, but they are doing what they can.

The problem is that aside from Dick getting his history ripped to shreds he wasn't really being treated well as Nightwing. He wasn't being written as this character that was Batman and carried that weight that Bruce carries. That should have put him more on an equal footing with Bruce in at least some capacity, but he was still being written as the kind of character that gets strapped to a chair for most of Forever Evil only for Bruce to come save him like some sort of damsel. I just don't think Nightwing worked, and I don't know if Nightwing will ever work in the New 52 unless there are massive sweeping changes. So Dick had to do something else if he wants to try and get at all closer to being that character who could be Batman again.

I know that the creative team is only so powerful, but what I was trying to say is how little we have seen of one of DC's oldest characters in this new universe, and that really hurts Dick's importance and character in the New 52. DC should have started by building up Dick's character from the beginning of reboot but there has barely been anything or the things there aren't really that good or memorable. I have no idea why he is being so mistreated and mishandled, though I do feel Grayson's current team does want to honor and try to treat the character right, but then again so did Higgins . Also I'm not asking for his old history back (though I would love for everything Pre-52 back) but I feel just the way the reboot happened/started DC should have brought the concept of sidekicks back so we have a DCU that actual feels new again instead of this weird hybrid mess that we currently have. If they would've started off at the actual beginning of most heroes careers or even had a series that was all about telling stories about their adventures when they were younger so we could have a solid backstory to build upon, but that is a whole other discussion for another time.

I do feel Nightwing can come back in a few years, though I have no idea how they could.