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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Are you talking about the Sue who joined with Doom on Battleworld in Secret Wars by Hickman? I don’t think she had even met a Reed Richards before. But you’re right. Sue wouldn’t have abandoned Johnny and Ben normally, but that Doom Sue was manipulated by Doom, so I give her a break.

    As for the 5 years wasted on alternate universe creation, you could be right there were only a few destroyed. I just got it in my head Griever destroyed the lot of those made.

    Franklin though? He should really refuse to be in the family. That kid is constantly put in danger. I don’t care if Franklin was shown to attack Griever by himself, it’s the family that allowed him to act independently like that, and he gets defeated. He’s only a kid, and he was traumatised by that Griever fight. Then they tell him to jump right in again? Very poor parenting.

    And what kind of cosmic entity is Griever? If she was like Living Tribunal, she could vaporise all of them. She must me a very novice cosmic, or really over-rates herself to be duped like a novice.
    No I'm talking about 616 Sue and Reed who have left Ben and Johnny. Two-in-One #11 explained that Reed left them so that Doom could be a good person, but it makes no sense to the characters and especially Sue. Reed the man who literally moved heaven and earth to bring Ben back from the dead abandoned him for Doom? Sue who's family is the most important thing to her would abandon her brothers for Doom? The man who for years tried to destroy her family? It makes no sense and was only created because they can't use the real reason they were gone.

    Why would he refuse to be in the family? It's his family... I think you may be overthinking it. Dragon Man told him how powerful he is and because of it he got a bit arrogant, we even saw a bit of this arrogance at the beginning of issue 2 where he half-jokingly calls himself a God. That arrogance led to him going after the Griever by himself. They needed him for the big fight afterwards because he is still the most powerful person there. Sue was going to let him sit it out if he really didn't want to do it, but he needed to do it. Spider-Man's great power speech wasn't what Franklin needed to hear, but he was right in that Franklin had to fight. It's not bad parenting and Ben helped Franklin to grow from it by reminding him he's not alone.

    Reed said she couldn't kill them because it was like us trying to kill a microorganism by hand. I think that is a very creative way of viewing how much more powerful she is while being unable to instantly kill them.
    Last edited by Crimz; 11-16-2018 at 07:49 AM.
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  2. #62
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    Felt a bit rushed at the end and the art but enjoyed it

    The cameos were a bit odd and out of place like the Hulk because others would see him and Logan but glad to have the FF back at last.

    Fitting that they're back together with Stan gone now and them being his greatest and favourite creation.
    Last edited by The BaRoN; 11-16-2018 at 09:02 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by The BaRoN View Post
    Felt a bit rushed at the end and the art but enjoyed it

    The cameos were a bit odd and out of place like the Hulk because others would see him and Logan but glad to have the FF back at last.

    Fitting that they're back together with Stan gone now and then bring his greatest and favourite creation.
    Exactly.

    Hulk is in "full dark, hell beast" mode now.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Are you talking about the Sue who joined with Doom on Battleworld in Secret Wars by Hickman? I don’t think she had even met a Reed Richards before. But you’re right. Sue wouldn’t have abandoned Johnny and Ben normally, but that Doom Sue was manipulated by Doom, so I give her a break.

    As for the 5 years wasted on alternate universe creation, you could be right there were only a few destroyed. I just got it in my head Griever destroyed the lot of those made.

    Franklin though? He should really refuse to be in the family. That kid is constantly put in danger. I don’t care if Franklin was shown to attack Griever by himself, it’s the family that allowed him to act independently like that, and he gets defeated. He’s only a kid, and he was traumatised by that Griever fight. Then they tell him to jump right in again? Very poor parenting.

    And what kind of cosmic entity is Griever? If she was like Living Tribunal, she could vaporise all of them. She must me a very novice cosmic, or really over-rates herself to be duped like a novice.
    jeez louise, its been said time & again, the Sue and Kids in Secret War are not our universes. YOUR WELCOME

  5. #65
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    when was iceman a ff member?
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO, THE OMEGA'S OMEGA, BEYOND OMEGA, THE VOICE OF SOL!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    when was iceman a ff member?
    He wasn't. There is now an "untold story" of him being a member sometime in the past. We'll likely get that story at some point, maybe in an annual or something.



    It's basically a retcon.
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  7. #67
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    No I'm talking about 616 Sue and Reed who have left Ben and Johnny. Two-in-One #11 explained that Reed left them so that Doom could be a good person, but it makes no sense to the characters and especially Sue. Reed the man who literally moved heaven and earth to bring Ben back from the dead abandoned him for Doom? Sue who's family is the most important thing to her would abandon her brothers for Doom? The man who for years tried to destroy her family? It makes no sense and was only created because they can't use the real reason they were gone.

    Why would he refuse to be in the family? It's his family... I think you may be overthinking it. Dragon Man told him how powerful he is and because of it he got a bit arrogant, we even saw a bit of this arrogance at the beginning of issue 2 where he half-jokingly calls himself a God. That arrogance led to him going after the Griever by himself. They needed him for the big fight afterwards because he is still the most powerful person there. Sue was going to let him sit it out if he really didn't want to do it, but he needed to do it. Spider-Man's great power speech wasn't what Franklin needed to hear, but he was right in that Franklin had to fight. It's not bad parenting and Ben helped Franklin to grow from it by reminding him he's not alone.

    Reed said she couldn't kill them because it was like us trying to kill a microorganism by hand. I think that is a very creative way of viewing how much more powerful she is while being unable to instantly kill them.
    Thanks for clearing up which Sue we are talking about. Your arguments seem sound enough. On thinking about Reeds logic about TIO #11, I think Reed was despondent at how the world turned out, and he tried to think how the world would have turned out if Doom was good, so abandoning Johnny and Ben to a GOOD Doom was no risk, and maybe Reed thought having Ben and Johnny there to supervise Doom would be a good thing? Reed convincing Sue of this may have been a problem, but it looks like Sue went along with it. Just my thoughts.

    I could see your logic why Franklin may have been overzealous about him confronting Griever alone, but I’m more convinced the FF made him like that and didn’t rein his enthusiasm in. I have to disagree about Franklin staying with his family. He should become withdrawn from them because Reed in particular is poison.

    Okay, the microorganism logic has some weight to it, but I would have liked more back-story to Griever to demonstrate that fallibility.

  8. #68
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runguy View Post
    jeez louise, its been said time & again, the Sue and Kids in Secret War are not our universes. YOUR WELCOME
    Yeah, I’m not convinced the Sue and kids Reed had with him at the end of Secret Wars wasn’t the Doom group, because Sue in particular seemed a bit naive, having to ask Valeria to explain, a couple of times, what’s going on. How would Val know, anyway, if she just showed up herself? There are holes in what happened at the end of Secret Wars #9.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    It's only there because you can't say the real reason the FF were gone. which is that Marvel didn't want to use properties they didn't fully own
    The real reason the FF were gone was that sales weren't up to snuff for a flagship, so they cancelled the book and then spent time hyping up a relaunch, the same way they did with Thor in the mid-2000's. If they were actually trying to bury the franchise, the executive editor's favorite franchise, they would have gotten rid of all the characters instead of smattering their characters and concepts across several of their biggest books and constantly talking about their absence.

  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    The real reason the FF were gone was that sales weren't up to snuff for a flagship, so they cancelled the book and then spent time hyping up a relaunch, the same way they did with Thor in the mid-2000's. If they were actually trying to bury the franchise, the executive editor's favorite franchise, they would have gotten rid of all the characters instead of smattering their characters and concepts across several of their biggest books and constantly talking about their absence.
    That's definitely part of it, but not the entire reason they were removed.
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  11. #71
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    If the Trank Fantastic Four movie was super successful and reinvigorated excitement for the franchise, I bet Brevoort's hat the book would've continued despite Fox shenanigans, the same way the X-Men books always had something cooked up in time for the latest FoX-Men movie.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    The real reason the FF were gone was that sales weren't up to snuff for a flagship, so they cancelled the book and then spent time hyping up a relaunch, the same way they did with Thor in the mid-2000's. If they were actually trying to bury the franchise, the executive editor's favorite franchise, they would have gotten rid of all the characters instead of smattering their characters and concepts across several of their biggest books and constantly talking about their absence.
    As I recall Hickman said the ff was cancelled due to fox ownership, not numbers

    Toward the end they were around 30000 iirc, plenty to keep them viable

  13. #73
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    He wasn't. There is now an "untold story" of him being a member sometime in the past. We'll likely get that story at some point, maybe in an annual or something.



    It's basically a retcon.
    thank u. but ht said it apparently didnt count. lol

    I swear they are really pushing iceman all over the place. :/
    Last edited by butterflykyss; 11-16-2018 at 10:24 PM.
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  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member Factor's Avatar
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    Still feels too much like Reed's show. Pretty much everything, including the synopsis at the start, revolves around him.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    Still feels too much like Reed's show. Pretty much everything, including the synopsis at the start, revolves around him.
    the only thing I didn't like here was the ease with which a supposed enbodiment was dealt with

    Destruction could not handle wolverine, spiderman, jen and the rest after so easily beating franklin?

    Low balling if that's what she was, the power to destroy a universe really should have no trouble with bacteria to use the books analogy

    There's more to her than that I therefore think, coz that kind of power should not need the AAA to get home in a rented vehicle

    she was a let down imo but the rest was solid

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