Judgement Day #5 - Review *spoilers*

[Huntsman Spider]

I think what it ultimately boils down to is that Krakoa was a desperation move on the part of its leadership on behalf of mutantkind as a whole. Let's not forget that the previous arc before HOXPOX was mutants being subjected to medical genocide in the form of a vaccine that would prevent the X-gene from ever manifesting in latent mutants, a vaccine intended for national, then global distribution to "end the mutant threat," with almost none of the X-Men's supposed allies in human society and the nonmutant superhero community raising that much of a fuss on mutants' behalf, given the X-Men were presumed dead at the time. After that, I could understand mutantkind, even its more heroic representatives in the X-Men, collectively deciding it was time to try something else, since all those years of attempting to win human hearts and minds had proven so fruitless and even counterproductive to their survival as a people.

Although I'd acknowledge Magneto strutting around declaring mutants "the new gods of humanity" put a bad taste in human leaders' (and real-world fans') mouths, given how many of those leaders were complicit in repeated attempts at genocide against mutants, even if only by their inaction and acquiescence, I didn't have much in the way of sympathy. Hell, I admit not having much in the way of sympathy for the "mutants are too arrogant and overreaching now" argument, because after years or decades of trying so desperately to win humanity's acceptance, respect, and even love and being constantly repaid with violent rejection, disrespect, and hatred, I'll say the mutants are fairly justified in finally taking control of their own collective destiny and no longer holding themselves back to appease those who would see them wiped out, whether by direct action or just standing back and letting it happen. That said, with Captain America/Steve Rogers being brought back through the Krakoan Resurrection Protocols in this latest installment of the A.X.E. saga, I am hoping that does lead to (re)building bridges between mutants and humans (and perhaps even Eternals and Deviants/Changing People, too).

[JB]

I think what it ultimately boils down to is that Krakoa was a desperation move on the part of its leadership on behalf of mutantkind as a whole. Let's not forget that the previous arc before HOXPOX was mutants being subjected to medical genocide in the form of a vaccine that would prevent the X-gene from ever manifesting in latent mutants, a vaccine intended for national, then global distribution to "end the mutant threat," with almost none of the X-Men's supposed allies in human society and the nonmutant superhero community raising that much of a fuss on mutants' behalf, given the X-Men were presumed dead at the time. After that, I could understand mutantkind, even its more heroic representatives in the X-Men, collectively deciding it was time to try something else, since all those years of attempting to win human hearts and minds had proven so fruitless and even counterproductive to their survival as a people.

Although I'd acknowledge Magneto strutting around declaring mutants "the new gods of humanity" put a bad taste in human leaders' (and real-world fans') mouths, given how many of those leaders were complicit in repeated attempts at genocide against mutants, even if only by their inaction and acquiescence, I didn't have much in the way of sympathy. Hell, I admit not having much in the way of sympathy for the "mutants are too arrogant and overreaching now" argument, because after years or decades of trying so desperately to win humanity's acceptance, respect, and even love and being constantly repaid with violent rejection, disrespect, and hatred, I'll say the mutants are fairly justified in finally taking control of their own collective destiny and no longer holding themselves back to appease those who would see them wiped out, whether by direct action or just standing back and letting it happen. That said, with Captain America/Steve Rogers being brought back through the Krakoan Resurrection Protocols in this latest installment of the A.X.E. saga, I am hoping that does lead to (re)building bridges between mutants and humans (and perhaps even Eternals and Deviants/Changing People, too).

Beautifully said.

[gonnagiveittoya]

Oh Im sure the writers will find a way to spin this whole thing as humans fault like they did with Genosha, a massacre committed by someone who they have minimal qualms teaming up with right now and give almost no blame to

Like could you imagine if in NYC after 9/11 New York's Mayor and Governor blamed Boston for the attacks but then made peace with Mohammad Attah and Osama Bin Ladenand have them eternal life and a luxury apartment

[Devaishwarya]

How could Gillenister spin this event as the humans' fault when he himself wrote that this entire mess started with Druig wanting more power and status among the Eternals?

Tell me you're not reading the books without telling me you're not reading the books

[Saithor]

How could Gillenister spin this event as the humans' fault when he himself wrote that this entire mess started with Druig wanting more power and status among the Eternals?

Tell me you're not reading the books without telling me you're not reading the books

He’s not saying Gillen will. He is saying future writers will like how current writers keep on trying to pin the blame for Genosha not on Cassandra Nova. And this isn’t just the Hellfire gala issue, they also had the data page where the Quiet Council decided to ascribe the blame for the Genoshan deaths to Trask officially.

A man who may so remind you, never wanted Sentinels to kill mutants and when Bastion forced him back to life and told him about the multitude of mutants his creations had killed, responded by shooting himself in the brains the first chance he got.

[Omega Alpha]

Oh Im sure the writers will find a way to spin this whole thing as humans fault like they did with Genosha, a massacre committed by someone who they have minimal qualms teaming up with right now and give almost no blame to

Like could you imagine if in NYC after 9/11 New York's Mayor and Governor blamed Boston for the attacks but then made peace with Mohammad Attah and Osama Bin Ladenand have them eternal life and a luxury apartment

Yeah, that would be like if the after 9/11 the US went to war with Afghanistan and Iraq, the latter of which had nothing to do whatsoever with the attack, but did nothing against and in fact increased ties with Saudi Arabia, even though nearly all terrorists were from there and all were following the wahhabist ideology their government supports. Oh, wait...

(For what is worth, yes, Nova being in Krakoa is utterly stupid, one of the reasons I didn't bother picking up Orlando's Marauders).

[Saithor]

Yeah, that would be like if the after 9/11 the US went to war with Afghanistan and Iraq, the latter of which had nothing to do whatsoever with the attack, but did nothing against and in fact increased ties with Saudi Arabia, even though nearly all terrorists were from there and all were following the wahhabist ideology their government supports. Oh, wait...

(For what is worth, yes, Nova being in Krakoa is utterly stupid, one of the reasons I didn't bother picking up Orlando's Marauders).

The difference in these analogies are that Saudi Arabia and Iraq are entirely different countries while Boston is part of the US.

Although honestly I think the moral argument needs to be tossed out. The Quiet Council contains Shaw and Sinister and used to have Apocalypse. Emma Frost outright said she was looking to the East India Trading Company for who to emulate with the Hellfire Trading Company which I don’t think anyone here has made a defense of yet.

Stuff like that is why I say there’s a disconnect between early Krakoa and current Krakoa. Things like Magneto repeating actual Nazi conspiracy theories about minorities as their goals or Logan sharing a beer with a guy who fed the child of some of his friends to pigs was signs something was off.

But we’ll never know for sure because Hickman left, and is keeping mum on what the original plans were in the first place. Instead leaving the fandom stuck in a circular recurrence much like mutant king itself, unable to actually take a step forward and where the only progress is backwards because of the demands of those higher up.

[jwatson]

The difference in these analogies are that Saudi Arabia and Iraq are entirely different countries while Boston is part of the US.

Although honestly I think the moral argument needs to be tossed out. The Quiet Council contains Shaw and Sinister and used to have Apocalypse. Emma Frost outright said she was looking to the East India Trading Company for who to emulate with the Hellfire Trading Company which I don’t think anyone here has made a defense of yet.

Stuff like that is why I say there’s a disconnect between early Krakoa and current Krakoa. Things like Magneto repeating actual Nazi conspiracy theories about minorities as their goals or Logan sharing a beer with a guy who fed the child of some of his friends to pigs was signs something was off.

But we’ll never know for sure because Hickman left, and is keeping mum on what the original plans were in the first place. Instead leaving the fandom stuck in a circular recurrence much like mutant king itself, unable to actually take a step forward and where the only progress is backwards because of the demands of those higher up.

I'm just going by the material not inferring. she mentions the green door, and it does specifically mention pods growing new life, she heals herself despite those but mentions each rebirth makes death weaker. So why would those against a cancerverse advocate for mutants to bring back billions of lives.

valkeyriedeath.jpg
valkeyriedeath2.jpg

Also additional fact Al Ewing wrote issues 6 and 7 which attacks this very problem or at least he is credited with it along side aaron.

[Saithor]

I'm just going by the material not inferring. she mentions the green door, and it does specifically mention pods growing new life, she heals herself despite those but mentions each rebirth makes death weaker. So why would those against a cancerverse advocate for mutants to bring back billions of lives.

valkeyriedeath.jpg
valkeyriedeath2.jpg

Also additional fact Al Ewing wrote issues 6 and 7 which attacks this very problem or at least he is credited with it along side aaron.

A). This isn't the thread where we were discussing this

B). I read the issue you are specifically citing. She does not mention mutants in any way so Jane should have no idea it is mutants.

C). By that logic any amount of rebirth that can extend infinitely is going to cause a cancerverse eventually as the mutant or any other population grows infinitely throughout time. If the argument is that any amount of rebirth will weaken death over time, the Cancerverse is an inevitability regardless of the number of resurrections.

D). I have no idea what you mentioning Ewing's involvement has to do with any of this. I don't even think he was writing Red before those issues were written, not that it matters.

[jwatson]

A). This isn't the thread where we were discussing this

B). I read the issue you are specifically citing. She does not mention mutants in any way so Jane should have no idea it is mutants.

C). By that logic any amount of rebirth that can extend infinitely is going to cause a cancerverse eventually as the mutant or any other population grows infinitely throughout time. If the argument is that any amount of rebirth will weaken death over time, the Cancerverse is an inevitability regardless of the number of resurrections.

D). I have no idea what you mentioning Ewing's involvement has to do with any of this. I don't even think he was writing Red before those issues were written, not that it matters.

wrong thread then, my bad but still it is what it is. You can can say mutants weren't mentioned specifically but it doesn't matter what Jane knew or not because the audience knows. and ewing i mentioned because as i was reading it i noticed he was credited and had to once again give dude his props because he knew fans would be all "but the cancerverse" about the green door and mutants coming out of pods and tied it up oh so neatly. i believe he was in the planning stages or already writing sword at this time not Red. ^_^


lmao it is the rebirth thread. lol. too many judgement threads.

[Saithor]

Either way, the point still stands. If Death is still weakened by every rebirth, Cancerverse is an inevitability for the marvel universe.

[jwatson]

So the question still stands then why would marvel fans want to speed it up by having mutants resurrect humans if they are really worried about it happening?

[Saithor]

So the question still stands then why would marvel fans want to speed it up by having mutants resurrect humans if they are really worried about it happening?

Because Marvel isn't going to have the future of it all be the Cancerverse? Seriously, I find this entire thing kind of facetious. If the cancerverse was suddenly going to be plot relevant to this story it would have been so by now. No one is going to suddenly have Jane Foster come screaming in about how we need to end the protocols or everything will becomes the cancerverse.

Seriously. The plot point is dead. It got ended in that run of Valkyrie. I don't care if it happens or not because some Marvel writer will retcon it will before it actually becomes an issue. This is the equivalent of being worried that Pyro and Johnny Storm might accidentally be accelerating global warming every time they turn their powers on.

[gonnagiveittoya]

Like yeah the Cancerverse thing isn't a real plot point

[Frobisher]

It’s like the Eternals have been resurrecting since the Dawn of time, and a few thousand extra resurrections out of a universe of trillions of lives is somehow going to break the balance.