Secret Wars #5 Review (w/SPOILERS)

[jackolover]

That could be. Some of the other tie ins, and I am not getting all of them, reveal other facets of Battleworld. In Attilan Rising, Black Bolt shows to Medusa how she is being mind controlled into obedience to God Doom and there are devices hovering all over the planet to reinforce this. Maybe that won't work on the raft survivors. And that's a pretty powerful group there to have to contend with. The Thor Corps had more than they could handle with Thanos's group. I would think that God Doom could just zap them all like Stephen though.

Could you pin point these hovering devices in which books?

[jackolover]

Nope. There are a lot more universes than 40 represented throughout the 40 domains, and it wasn't 22 Incursions with two realities each, it was 22 realities, so even if it was just 40 alternate universes represented, it still wouldn't work out. Doom clearly somehow did preserve fragments or remnants from universes destroyed prior to or during the confrontation with the Beyonders. This actually fits with the observations made by the Illuminati prior to that confrontation, which showed that the Incursion zones were starting to disappear milliseconds later than the rest of their universes, indicating that something different (such as some agency like Doom preserving just those parts of the universes and transporting or storing them somewhere) was happening with those zones.

But remember, Doom is not restricted to staying linear in time... it's perfectly possible that once he had enough power, he was able to reach into the past of these universes in order to preserve remnants of them to use on Battleworld*. On the theory that the Beyonders represent the editors and writers (and presumably artists) of the comics, besides such beings not being linear so far as Doom is concerned (since a writer can reach into Doom's past and muck it up any time they want), there's another count against it, which would be that there wasn't some huge slaughter of Marvel editors and writers recently. You can't even say that they've stopped having control over the comics, having it taken away by Doom for the time being, since we know they're continuing to turn in scripts, etc., just the same as always. But it is a nice meta-theory nonetheless.

*Now, if you want to get philosophical about it, it's actually a very difficult question whether there's any real difference between a) reaching into the past and pulling people, objects, and locations from it into the present, and b) creating duplicates of past people, objects, and locations in the present. Kind of the same as for many concepts of teleportation, you have the question of whether you're actually transporting anybody, or just destroying them where they were and recreating them where you want them to be. Did Captain Kirk die and get resurrected every time Scotty beamed him somewhere?

Good point about the non-linear Doom with the Beyonders power reaching back in time to collect as many realities as he wanted during Incursions. I still like my 22 realities forming Battleworld though.

But there is a discrepancy on the amounts of realities in Battleworld, as there is more than 22 realities.

[jphamlore]

I still think much of Hickman's story is related to Sumerian mythology. There is an astonishing array of gods and demigods, often warring with each other. Beyonders -> Builders -> humans seems similar to Sumerian myths where lesser gods grow tired of drudgery and create humans, then the higher gods decide to destroy everything with a flood. White space seems like the salt waters of chaos from which everything arose, whereas I think there is a dream space such as the Builders Superflow and Franklin Richards dreamverse that is the equivalent of fresh water that nourishes life. And surviving the flood there are rafts, that is, an ark.

Now this being comics, the rebel Gilgamesh instead of merely seeking immortality is able to wrest from the gods the equivalent of the Tablets of Destiny and to rule the cosmos himself.

[The Fury]

I still think much of Hickman's story is related to Sumerian mythology.

So, what you are saying is that it's not original?


I jest, a good comparison. How did the mythology get resolved? Meaning how did the world come to be after?

[jphamlore]

So, what you are saying is that it's not original?


I jest, a good comparison. How did the mythology get resolved? Meaning how did the world come to be after?

The only reason I knew of any Sumerian connection is that at the very beginning of Hickman's New Avengers story, Black Swan is apparently speaking in Sumerian.

For the Sumerians, apparently the story almost always ends in suffering, although I think Gilgamesh eventually becomes a judge of the dead. Unfortunately the stories are literally in fragments of tablets with giant parts of them lost. From Gilgamesh's perspective the flood was a distant lost legend that he rediscovered in his journeys.

The Sumerian view of the afterlife was almost complete pessimism, the underworld being a terrible place of suffering and decay. If by chance its denizens could escape, the Earth would be overwhelmed by a horde of zombies.

[The Fury]

If by chance its denizens could escape, the Earth would be overwhelmed by a horde of zombies.

.... or in this case, a horde of Marvel Zombies.

*ba dum tisch*

I'll see myself out.

[Prof. Warren]

I finally had the time to read #5 and I loved it. Yes, it's a mostly expository issue but for SW to function as a story, this chapter had to exist and the mechanics behind what Doom has accomplished had to be revealed. Not everyone has read Hickman's Avengers run and even for those who have, a brief refresher was welcome. And the level of characterization Hickman brings to Doom, Molecule Man and Valeria ensured that this wasn't just an info dump. And even if it was, Ribic's art would make it the most gorgeous info dump ever rendered on a comic page.

But even though this was something of a breather or an interlude, the final pages nicely ramped things up for the major conflicts of SW's back end and the inevitable unraveling of Doom's world. Valeria's determination to go against Doom's wishes and Thanos' smile as he gazes at the SHIELD were priceless.

[bandoogiemanz]

I believe the answer to both of your questions was given by Valeria this very issue:

Doom literally is Battleworld and its people (the kids of the future foundation say as much:"We are made of the stuff of Doom") which means he's used the power of the Beyonders to remake everything he could, people included. Strange WAS NOT made of the "stuff of Doom", because he was not recreated by Doom with the power of the Beyonders. So, as Valeria puts it "Strange's power was independent of Doom's, and he registered as an ABSENCE OF DOOM". Doom literally is holding the planet togheter using his willpower. Doubt "harms" his ability to do so, he tries to erase all doubt (and let's not forget that's Doom's nature, he's a tyrant whose greatest strength is self confidence). The danger the raftees pose to Doom is they undermine the foundation of the world he created and put the lie to it. And more importantly Doom's self confidence is harmed by Reed Richards. He makes him doubt his own abilities, and in a world where he's keeping everything togheter by willpower that's an extremely dangerous thing to do. That's why he kills Strange: the words he said were true but Doom simply could not accept them.

I completely agree with you. One could argue Phoenixclops was the strongest of the raftees and Doom snapped his neck no problem. I don't think it's strength Doom fears from the raftees presence, but what you have mentioned. It's been repeated various times throughout this series that people in Battleworld strongly believe in Doom and believe in his power, that he is god. What is the common thread with all the people that oppose Doom? They don't believe he is god. That is why they are dangerous. They can stir disbelief in the residents of Battleworld.

[simbob4000]

Weakest Secret Wars issue so far. Exposition upon exposition upon exposition.

I still liked it but common, we have three issues left and it's still feels a bit lacking in moving forward with the story.

Hope the wait for the next issue will be worth it

That's all Secret Wars has been so far, same goes with Avengers Time Runs Out. This series has just been one long boring convoluted mess where character drone on endlessly. Does the action in this series take place outside of this series or something stupid like that? Because every time it builds up to what feels like it's going to be some big fight, you don't get anything...guess they had to cut that stuff so characters could babble-on.

Even this issue didn't have to feel so damn slow. Something like Molecule Man killing himself over and over again in fights with himself could be presented in a very cool visually interesting way, but it's not...nor is really anything in this series. It's some nice art, but this is a very boring story told in a very boring way in some very boring looking locations.

[simbob4000]

This right here is the biggest thing I dont' like about this event adn why, currently, I am only reading the main title.

I can't tell who is who and from what universe and... it just all feels pointless for me.

The best part of this event are some of the side things, admittedly they're also things that have very little to seemingly nothing to do with the event...like Where Monsters Dwell, X-Men '92, and Old Man Logan.

[jphamlore]

I completely agree with you. One could argue Phoenixclops was the strongest of the raftees and Doom snapped his neck no problem. I don't think it's strength Doom fears from the raftees presence, but what you have mentioned. It's been repeated various times throughout this series that people in Battleworld strongly believe in Doom and believe in his power, that he is god. What is the common thread with all the people that oppose Doom? They don't believe he is god. That is why they are dangerous. They can stir disbelief in the residents of Battleworld.

Baron Sinister does not seem particularly respectful of anyone let alone regarding them as a god, and he is apparently plotting against Doom after capturing one of the Raftees.

As far as having the ability to sustain Battleworld with his willpower, there is another person from Hickman's Fantastic Four run who was being specifically trained by his future self to have limitless imagination: Franklin Richards.

If all Molecule Men across the Multiverse equals one giant bomb, I speculate all the Franklin Richards across the Multiverse are the Dreamverse that can reboot this Multiverse.

[BAS]

Baron Sinister does not seem particularly respectful of anyone let alone regarding them as a god, and he is apparently plotting against Doom after capturing one of the Raftees.

As far as having the ability to sustain Battleworld with his willpower, there is another person from Hickman's Fantastic Four run who was being specifically trained by his future self to have limitless imagination: Franklin Richards.

If all Molecule Men across the Multiverse equals one giant bomb, I speculate all the Franklin Richards across the Multiverse are the Dreamverse that can reboot this Multiverse.

The only issue with that is that just as there were limited numbers of Reed and Doom from Hickman's run in Fantastic Four, the council of Reeds was mostly formed by Reeds that abandoned the family -- so there's no guarantee that there are multiple Franklins.

I think one of the points of Hickman's FF run was that this set of Reed, Franklin, Valeria and Doom was unique in the multiverse.

[BruceWayneJr.]

That's all Secret Wars has been so far, same goes with Avengers Time Runs Out. This series has just been one long boring convoluted mess where character drone on endlessly. Does the action in this series take place outside of this series or something stupid like that? Because every time it builds up to what feels like it's going to be some big fight, you don't get anything...guess they had to cut that stuff so characters could babble-on.

Even this issue didn't have to feel so damn slow. Something like Molecule Man killing himself over and over again in fights with himself could be presented in a very cool visually interesting way, but it's not...nor is really anything in this series. It's some nice art, but this is a very boring story told in a very boring way in some very boring looking locations.

Man, you said it. The main series has been a slog, and I expected it based on Hickman's Avengers work, but I've been having fun with a few of the minis. Everyone seems content with sifting through the muddy details, but I've just not been given enough of a reason to care. It's not a total loss though, and it'll all be swept aside in a few months!

[klefmung]

The only issue with that is that just as there were limited numbers of Reed and Doom from Hickman's run in Fantastic Four, the council of Reeds was mostly formed by Reeds that abandoned the family -- so there's no guarantee that there are multiple Franklins.

I think one of the points of Hickman's FF run was that this set of Reed, Franklin, Valeria and Doom was unique in the multiverse.

Actually technically there was another doom in Ultimate Manhattan, but I doubt Doom let him into battleworld. Hickman's FF run didn't confirm that all of the Reeds and Dooms were dead. Just all the Reeds from the council, and their corresponding Dooms. There could have been other Reeds that didn't build a bridge, etc, just that Doom would never let them cross the threshold of his Kingdom, nor would he allow their Doom. The only person Hickman confirmed to be unique in the multiverse is Nathaniel.

[RAINMESS]

Actually technically there was another doom in Ultimate Manhattan, but I doubt Doom let him into battleworld. Hickman's FF run didn't confirm that all of the Reeds and Dooms were dead. Just all the Reeds from the council, and their corresponding Dooms. There could have been other Reeds that didn't build a bridge, etc, just that Doom would never let them cross the threshold of his Kingdom, nor would he allow their Doom. The only person Hickman confirmed to be unique in the multiverse is Nathaniel.

But Doom said that he couldn't find another Reed Richards. It was kinda ironic because Maker was front of him but that kinda confirmed there is no other Reed Richards around.
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I just read through Hickmans FF run and really I understand Secret Wars better now.