Captain Marvel / Shazam Appreciaton

[Güicho]

First SHAZAM! TV spot.. Nothing that new, mostly just a re-edit of previous footage.

[SilverWarriorWolf]

I found an interesting case of someone who’s had experience with adoption that says New 52 Billy is not anymore accurate than Golden Age Billy. I’m not saying he’s right or wrong, but I thought his perspective was an interesting thought.

https://www.entertainmentfuse.com/th...-billy-batson/

[Güicho]

Nice review, and you are right his perspective is interesting and very insightful, thanks for sharing it.

Keep in mind he's only read according to him 12 pages, only from the first two issues, which as published were back ups, these are not even full issues , so he hasn't read the whole SHAZAM relaunch.
Only the start .
Which is fine, just keep in mind he doesn't have the full story.

I actually love his comparison, of SHAZAM's adoption, as the antithesis of Superman's adoption story, which makes them similar, but more importantly highlights what makes them different.

He said-

Unfortunately, Captain Marvel - or Shazam! - really is such a closely related character to Superman, that the only way to make him different is to make his adoption story a sad one.

I'm not sure I really want a realistic take or approach to adoption, especially involving Billy Batson. Billy is Clark's dark twin. It's all opposites. Everything good that happened to Clark goes horribly, terribly wrong for Billy. When bad things happen to Billy, it creates a sad, unfortunate adoption picture.

Which is actually true to Billy's classic story, this wasn't just Geoff Johns, Billy's first adoptive experience was in fact a sad one.




Superman never went through this, so even though he may never have read the original Shazam stories, his review is quite insightful into glomming onto that important difference, between Billy and Clark, which he is right, should be highlighted.
And Johns does exactly that.

His misunderstanding might be in thinking Billy's somewhat sad adoption experience, was just added by Johns.
But we know it was already part of Billy's experience. Johns just further expands on it, Billy is coming from a different place than young Clark Kent.

Which in the end (if you read the whole story, which he hasn't at this point) ), speaks to the ultimate difference, the power and significance in Billy's transformation into hero, which includes his ability to both let go of, and surprisingly share the power with his family.
Things Superman can't normally do.

So what really makes them different?
In the end we see Family isn't just what you are given or adopted into, but what you (in this case Billy) makes of it.
Billy doesn't just get a family, he creates one, by being true to who he really is and what he wants ...a family..
Which is a great message.
You just have to read the whole story.

From his his perspective as an adopting dad, I get, at that point in his reading he prefers to share with his kids Clark Kent's more happy, well adjusted adoption story into becoming Superman. That's wonderful he should!
He want's his adoptive kids to see a straight positive image of the family adopting and the kid being adopted, yet like he said he's only two issues in.

When I look for stories to show my son, Justin, how positive his adoption has been - for him and for me - with good role models all around - the only one I keep coming back to is Superman. I want him to see a little of Jonathan Kent in me. The old wizard Shazam seems cold and mean. Mr. Vasquez is not clearly defined enough. And unfortunately, neither Billy or Mrs. Glover think positive of him, and the other children haven't shown any influence or kindness from him yet. ....So far we're only two chapters in, but already it is not looking good for adoption.

We know however in the next issues, the exact opposite of what he thinks is true.
Billy can't help but stick up for these kids, and in return the kindness is equally reciprocated. When Billy stands up to the bullies, that despite what he he's been projecting outward, for fear of attaching himself to something he could lose again, he instinctually still protects the family.

So why? What makes Billy the hero recognized by the power? What does he really want?



As the story progresses, we learn that it is ultimately Billy who is the one reaching out to the family, and not just being adopted into one, but what he is doing is creating a family, by his own actions.
That becomes just as important.
Which is the whole point of the story, Family is in fact what Billy wanted all along, Yet it's not just about having a family, but also what you put into it, that makes the family.

Which is a great lesson.

I think the review is telling, Johns and Frank may have made Billy so unlikable at first, it has turned some off, which I recognize is a huge problem with their telling. Yet also a mistake would be interpreting a whole story, by just the first few issues.

Or interpreting a review as someone who has actually read the whole story, when they haven't. ; )
For those who haven't, I do recommend you read the whole story.


.

[maxmcco]

Nice review, and you are right his perspective is interesting and very insightful, thanks for sharing it.

Keep in mind he's only read according to him 12 pages, only from the first two issues, which as published were back ups, these are not even full issues , so he hasn't read the whole SHAZAM relaunch.
Only the start .
Which is fine, just keep in mind he doesn't have the full story.

I actually love his comparison, of SHAZAM's adoption, as the antithesis of Superman's adoption story, which makes them similar, but more importantly highlights what makes them different.

He said-

Which is actually true to Billy's classic story, this wasn't just Geoff Johns, Billy's first adoptive experience was in fact a sad one.




Superman never went through this, so even though he may never have read the original Shazam stories, his review is quite insightful into glomming onto that important difference, between Billy and Clark, which he is right, should be highlighted.
And Johns does exactly that.

His misunderstanding might be in thinking Billy's somewhat sad adoption experience, was just added by Johns.
But we know it was already part of Billy's experience. Johns just further expands on it, Billy is coming from a different place than young Clark Kent.

Which in the end (if you read the whole story, which he hasn't at this point) ), speaks to the ultimate difference, the power and significance in Billy's transformation into hero, which includes his ability to both let go of, and surprisingly share the power with his family.
Things Superman can't normally do.

So what really makes them different?
In the end we see Family isn't just what you are given or adopted into, but what you (in this case Billy) makes of it.
Billy doesn't just get a family, he creates one, by being true to who he really is and what he wants ...a family..
Which is a great message.
You just have to read the whole story.

From his his perspective as an adopting dad, I get, at that point in his reading he prefers to share with his kids Clark Kent's more happy, well adjusted adoption story into becoming Superman. That's wonderful he should!
He want's his adoptive kids to see a straight positive image of the family adopting and the kid being adopted, yet like he said he's only two issues in.



We know however in the next issues, the exact opposite of what he thinks is true.
Billy can't help but stick up for these kids, and in return the kindness is equally reciprocated. When Billy stands up to the bullies, that despite what he he's been projecting outward, for fear of attaching himself to something he could lose again, he instinctually still protects the family.

So why? What makes Billy the hero recognized by the power? What does he really want?



As the story progresses, we learn that it is ultimately Billy who is the one reaching out to the family, and not just being adopted into one, but what he is doing is creating a family, by his own actions.
That becomes just as important.
Which is the whole point of the story, Family is in fact what Billy wanted all along, Yet it's not just about having a family, but also what you put into it, that makes the family.

Which is a great lesson.

I think the review is telling, Johns and Frank may have made Billy so unlikable at first, it has turned some off, which I recognize is a huge problem with their telling. Yet also a mistake would be interpreting a whole story, by just the first few issues.

Or interpreting a review as someone who has actually read the whole story, when they haven't. ; )
For those who haven't, I do recommend you read the whole story.


.

Totally agree. I enjoyed his take on the character and I've been a Captain Marvel fan since 1975. Hopefully Johns will tone down Billy's troubled characterization for his followup comic. He did say the comic was feeding into the movie and the movie was feeding into the comic. Sandberg already said Billy would not be unlikable.

[J. D. Guy]

I think the review is telling, Johns and Frank may have made Billy so unlikable at first, it has turned some off, which I recognize is a huge problem with their telling. Yet also a mistake would be interpreting a whole story, by just the first few issues.

Or interpreting a review as someone who has actually read the whole story, when they haven't. ; )
For those who haven't, I do recommend you read the whole story.

I really can't see it right to call it a problem the writers had, when knowing the context of the whole story. Billy early outward portrayal (emphasis on "outward" and "portrayal", meaing that's how Billy actively portrayed himself on the outside, even if it was ultimately incongruous with what was on the inside), as caustic as it was, did not even scratch the surface. It was a brilliant move, and made the reveal of who Billy was and his backstory all the more compelling. The failings, if one must put a failing label on something, lies in the readership who failed to look back that early bit, those who had no sense of story beats and patience to allow a story to play out, along with those who hold grudges. Should a failing label be applied, it should then be to the misaimed readership, not the story or those who created it.

As for the review, if this is a contemporary review, if I may be so candid, I fear that him being a dad who adopted does not give him the weight and validity to his review that he, or anyone else, may feel it does, especially and specifically when contrasted with the reality that he only read a fraction into the whole story (and without any viable reason why making a judgement call that early would even be close to be understandable, since he didn't have wait for each ongoing back-up issue). He, for lack of a better suited term, essentially rage quits the story before the story even begins. That undermines his words and even his perspective, which together undermines and largely invalidates the entire review as a whole.

Totally agree. I enjoyed his take on the character and I've been a Captain Marvel fan since 1975. Hopefully Johns will tone down Billy's troubled characterization for his followup comic. He did say the comic was feeding into the movie and the movie was feeding into the comic. Sandberg already said Billy would not be unlikable.

Past the immediate beginning, which had a valid point for being told as it was, Billy wasn't unlikable in the New 52 story, either.

[Güicho]

I really can't see it right to call it a problem the writers had, when knowing the context of the whole story. Billy early outward portrayal (emphasis on "outward" and "portrayal", meaing that's how Billy actively portrayed himself on the outside, even if it was ultimately incongruous with what was on the inside), as caustic as it was, did not even scratch the surface. It was a brilliant move, and made the reveal of who Billy was and his backstory all the more compelling. The failings, if one must put a failing label on something, lies in the readership who failed to look back that early bit, those who had no sense of story beats and patience to allow a story to play out, along with those who hold grudges. Should a failing label be applied, it should then be to the misaimed readership, not the story or those who created it.

Wow, that was harsh LOL! Not sure why you directed that at me?
Since if you actually read what I wrote I'm saying they need to read the whole story to get it.
And emphasized what they are missing.
I was however, also trying to be a bit more empathetic (i guess that's a sin here) to the reviewer, and SilverWarriorWolf who posted the review, in recognizing the Billy as portrayed in the first few issues is hard to like, and I can understand why that turned some off.
However I also clearly pointed out.

Yet also a mistake would be interpreting a whole story, by just the first few issues.

Which you completely ignore I said, in your reply to me.

When pointing out that they hadn't read the whole story and why they should, was my main criticism of the review, as well as to SilverWarriorWolf who has admitted he never actually read beyond the first few issues.
Yet he continues to be one it's harshest critics across these boards.

Maybe direct a bit of your hostility there. LOL!

[SilverWarriorWolf]

Past the immediate beginning, which had a valid point for being told as it was, Billy wasn't unlikable in the New 52 story, either.

Do they ever actually tell us what happened to Nu52 Billy (aside from being bounced around)? I can’t afford to buy a copy, and my library doesn’t have one.

[Güicho]

We get some tiny hints and flashback... hints of other families, where he's escaped or run away.
Also him helping another kid getting out of a bad situation.
So there is always hints of him helping others, you see the kid who always has potential, and it's juxtaposed against the kid who is lashing out at anyone trying to connect with him.
You see he's both. That's why it's important you actually read the story, not just what people are telling you. Cause they are only seeing one side, and saying that is all there is too him, or reading with their eyes closed saying ..."this isn't "my" Billy!"

No, he's not just born perfect, with all all the answers. He's conflicted, and confused, about what he wants.

We also know Billy is still looking for his birth parents, he believes them to be alive, that he can find them.
This is a huge twist. Which ads to his hesitance in calling or allowing others in as family, as it would be a way of admitting his real parents are gone.
Which is probably the hardest thing to do, or admit.
He doesn't even let Darla call him family.

Yet when it comes to it, if you actually read it, he recognizes these people can be his family too.

"Family is what it can be, ....not what it should be"

...!

That is what he does with the power!.
And it's one of the best reaffirming aspects of the story, and absolutely true to the original character.

[SilverWarriorWolf]

We get some tiny hints and flashback... and hints of other families, where he's escaped or run away.

We know Billy is still looking for his birth parents, he believes them to be alive. Which ads to his hesitance in calling or allowing others others in as family, as it would be a way of admitting his real parents are gone. Which is probably the hardest thing to do.
Still when it comes to it, if you actually read it, he recognizes these people can be his family too.

I know Constantine lied to him about his birth family as a way to steal his powers (saw some panels online) and...wow, that was low. Poor Billy.

[Güicho]

I know Constantine lied to him about his birth family as a way to steal his powers (saw some panels online) and...wow, that was low. Poor Billy.

If you are wondering, that specifically does not take place in this story.

Maybe it happens in another story.

[SilverWarriorWolf]

If you are wondering, that specifically does not take place in this story.

Maybe it happens in another story.

I know. I think it was in Constantine’s book. It was still a rotten thing for John to do.

[MajorHoy]

from World's Finest Comics #253 (October-November 1978)

[Phoenixx9]

from World's Finest Comics #253 (October-November 1978)

Stories look interesting and great art too!

[signalman112]

The Late-Great Don Newton. My All-Time favorite artist for Cap and Batman.

[phantom1592]

I really can't see it right to call it a problem the writers had, when knowing the context of the whole story. Billy early outward portrayal (emphasis on "outward" and "portrayal", meaing that's how Billy actively portrayed himself on the outside, even if it was ultimately incongruous with what was on the inside), as caustic as it was, did not even scratch the surface. It was a brilliant move, and made the reveal of who Billy was and his backstory all the more compelling. The failings, if one must put a failing label on something, lies in the readership who failed to look back that early bit, those who had no sense of story beats and patience to allow a story to play out, along with those who hold grudges. Should a failing label be applied, it should then be to the misaimed readership, not the story or those who created it.

Really don't agree with that at all. This is a newer mentality that I just don't get behind. These aren't novels. They aren't movies. They aren't something that has earned the kind of Loyalty and patience. These are sequential magazines. The writers have one job and that is to tell an interesting story that delivers every month and makes the customer come back next month for the next part.

There are a lot of stories out there that do not deliver on that. If a writer is failing to connect with his audience and is writing a 12 issue epic where parts 1,2,3, 5, and 8 are boring to tears... it isn't the readers fault for walking away. Maybe it's a fine story... maybe that's the story that the writer really wanted to tell... but if that's not what the audience wants to read, then the writer is failing the company he's working for and the books get cancelled.


I remember similar conversations about Final Crisis and Morrison. If you didn't like it or you didn't 'get it'.... than it was on you and he was writing for himself... But no, It was advertised as a DC epic crossover and climax to the Crisis trilogy. That wasn't what we got.

Not saying any of this applies to THIS story. It had a few flaws I didn't like (no mention of the gods, sharing the power with too many people, Freddy being blonde... etc.) but overall it was pretty solid.