"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
I do agree that having the family beat Thomas so thoroughly only for him to stand up and beat them all does seem incongruous...but we've seen Bruce take that kind of beating, stand up, and win before. I think that's what King is going for - Thomas may be evil, but he's still Batman, and that means more than just the cape and cowl.
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
Fan of: Batman, Cassandra Cain, Wonder Woman, Silk, Stephanie Brown, Captain America, Hellcat, Renee Montoya, Gotham Central, King Shark
Quasi-Fan of: Aquaman, Midnighter, Superman, Catwoman, Nightwing, Green Arrow, Squadron Supreme, Red Hood
Other likes: Low, Hush, Arkham Asylum: ASHoSE, Watchmen, A-Force, Bombshells, Grayson, Unfollow
Team Cap (both Rogers and Danvers)
King has always had a bad habit, in my opinion, of letting the story or "moments" he wants to have override basic plot sense.
Last edited by Caivu; 10-16-2019 at 05:15 PM.
Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
Fan of: Batman, Cassandra Cain, Wonder Woman, Silk, Stephanie Brown, Captain America, Hellcat, Renee Montoya, Gotham Central, King Shark
Quasi-Fan of: Aquaman, Midnighter, Superman, Catwoman, Nightwing, Green Arrow, Squadron Supreme, Red Hood
Other likes: Low, Hush, Arkham Asylum: ASHoSE, Watchmen, A-Force, Bombshells, Grayson, Unfollow
Team Cap (both Rogers and Danvers)
I've not read much of Thomas. I just assume that he's Batman. And even though I 100% support "Cass is the best fighter," I think any Batman, in his cave, will have things that even the playing field, especially as we see Thomas playing the Batfamily against each other once he takes the initiative.
There's also the thematic thing that Thomas said in #69 - "When you think you've won, you've already lost." Very true for our heroes this time.
I mean, obviously I disagree about the plot or character sense thing. There are some times where it's bothered me - Deathstroke vs. Deadshot in The War of Jokes and Riddles is definitely one of them, Barbara's voice in most of his writing. But I would argue the consistency is largely interpreted.
I would turn the question to - "Do you really think that fans of King's writing think that what he's doing doesn't make sense, and love the nonsense?" Or possibly, maybe it does make sense to them.
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
Yeah, I'm not buying in a million years that an aged and beaten Thomas Wayne can defeat Cass by himself. Let alone Cass, Kate, Helena, Damian, and the rest of the family. Between that and "The family knew I didn't really mean to punch Tim", this whole issue just screams "bullshit".
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
But he wasn't using anything in the cave. What could he have even used?
That's an eyeroll-worthy bullshit quote, to be frank. You don't lose once you think you've won, only if you let your guard down because of it. And their guard wasn't down. Not to a degree that a beaten-up old man should have been an issue. Like, c'mon, these characters aren't that stupid.There's also the thematic thing that Thomas said in #69 - "When you think you've won, you've already lost." Very true for our heroes this time.
Then how does it make sense? Because it looks to me and a lot of others like a big messy pile of illogical, stupid guff.I would turn the question to - "Do you really think that fans of King's writing think that what he's doing doesn't make sense, and love the nonsense?" Or possibly, maybe it does make sense to them.
Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
Fan of: Batman, Cassandra Cain, Wonder Woman, Silk, Stephanie Brown, Captain America, Hellcat, Renee Montoya, Gotham Central, King Shark
Quasi-Fan of: Aquaman, Midnighter, Superman, Catwoman, Nightwing, Green Arrow, Squadron Supreme, Red Hood
Other likes: Low, Hush, Arkham Asylum: ASHoSE, Watchmen, A-Force, Bombshells, Grayson, Unfollow
Team Cap (both Rogers and Danvers)
We barely see any of the fight where Thomas wins. I think it's perfectly plausible for him to have used the cave.
I think the point isn't that you let your guard down - it's that you assumed from the beginning that everyone was part of your plan, not knowing that someone else might have had a plan, too. A bit keikaku, sure, but I like it.
Also, the Batfamily clearly HAD let their guard down to let Huntress shoot and not assume Thomas would be Batman and catch it. And also not to remember that Thomas has fewer compunctions than Bruce, and would use a lethal weapon against Tim.
I think the whole run does make a lot of sense, but that's more a question for the King Batman thread, not Cass's thread.
To give my own thoughts on how Thomas could beat Cass - after what Tynion did with her in Tec, it's a bit hard to say "Cass beat an army of League of Shadows ninja, which I assume are all at least pretty skilled, even if they're not Batfamily skilled". But my argument would be that Thomas 1) uses the cave - gadgets, geography, etc, that he's set up specifically for combat in the cave - with villains traipsing all over it, I think he almost certainly has done that, and 2) used the rest of the family to block his own movements so she can't read him as well.
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord