Barbara Gordon - as Batgirl or as Oracle?

[Ascended]

The problem with that is that Oracle can only be a support for other characters.

The years she spent as the co-lead in BoP makes this factually untrue. She wasn't a supporting character in that book any more than Dinah was. Babs drove the narrative at least as often, if not more so, than Dinah.

Babs in a chair does mean she won't be on the front lines doing the kicking. That does not mean she can't have a leading role. It just means her narratives have to bend a little differently than the usual comic book character. Which isn't a bad thing.

Of course, there's also no reason why she can't be Oracle and still doing some kicking too. The role is not dependent on the chair.

[Konja7]

The years she spent as the co-lead in BoP makes this factually untrue. She wasn't a supporting character in that book any more than Dinah was. Babs drove the narrative at least as often, if not more so, than Dinah.

Babs in a chair does mean she won't be on the front lines doing the kicking. That does not mean she can't have a leading role. It just means her narratives have to bend a little differently than the usual comic book character. Which isn't a bad thing.

My point of Oracle being a support was in response to someone who put her in that role for Stephanie or Cassandra. I know she was one of the leads of BoP.

That said, Oracle (in the chair) does not seem to be able to have a solo, while I want her to have one.

Of course, there's also no reason why she can't be Oracle and still doing some kicking too. The role is not dependent on the chair.

I agree. However, this does not seem to be reflected (people always relate Oracle with the chair).

[CrazyOldHermit]

Oracle.

Batgirl is a pointless, extraneous character. Oracle actually does something.

[Frontier]

I'd disagree with that assertion, and there are several ways to handle that problem, if the writer is skilled and creative.

One solution is the Chuck Dixon one, that he used in the early Birds of Prey titles: run the team consisting of only Oracle and one other character (in this case Black Canary). I think it was a narrative mistake to expand the Birds of Prey as they were later on, since it put Oracle more into a support role. It would probably be better to run most of the missions with only a single field agent.

Another is to run storylines which are focused on Oracle or Babs in various ways. These include more domestic or romantic ones, but can also easily be focused on mysteries or team dynamics.

I don't think it was a mistake to expand the Birds of Prey, if only because I think Helena and Zinda became as essential to the group as Dinah and Babs, even if their relationship with Barbara wasn't as deep as Dinah's was, but I definitely agree that Babs is as much a lead of the Birds as the rest of the team is.

She was a supporting character in other Batfamily books but that's because that was her clearly defined role in the Batfamily books, and she still had her own book to shine on her own (BoP).

Batgirl, by contrast, is lucky to be acknowledged as an important member of the family outside her solo book or Nightwing (where she is more often then not a love interest).

I agree. However, this does not seem to be reflected (people always relate Oracle with the chair).

I think part of that is because Oracle was designed to re-empower Babs after she was shot, so part of the identity is rooted in her disability and how she overcomes it.

[Ascended]

My point of Oracle being a support was in response to someone who put her in that role for Stephanie or Cassandra. I know she was one of the leads of BoP.

Ah, I missed that. Apologies.

That said, Oracle (in the chair) does not seem to be able to have a solo

Can't argue with that. A publisher like Image *might* be able to make a solo work if they spun it right, but a solo from DC would never generate the kind of profit the company demands and there probably isn't a writer at DC who could do it for more than a couple issues before running out of ideas.

[kjn]

I don't think it was a mistake to expand the Birds of Prey, if only because I think Helena and Zinda became as essential to the group as Dinah and Babs, even if their relationship with Barbara wasn't as deep as Dinah's was, but I definitely agree that Babs is as much a lead of the Birds as the rest of the team is.

Let me clarify what I meant a bit: it wasn't a mistake to associate new characters with the BoP. The mistake was, I think, in the type of stories they set out to tell and how to use the new characters. Instead of sending out a single operative, the post-Huntress stories had more and more characters out doing stuff, and that meant that Oracle received less page space and narrative attention. Making the team larger made it easier for the writer to put Oracle aside.

[mib86]

Babs in a chair does mean she won't be on the front lines doing the kicking. That does not mean she can't have a leading role. It just means her narratives have to bend a little differently than the usual comic book character. Which isn't a bad thing.

I remember that time when, in the chair , she confronted the Joker and broke the his's teeth, true epiciness .
it was something like:"Now i also stole something from you,your precious smile of you will be fake forever..."

[Godlike13]

No, that scene was the opposite of epic. The full scene was actually hard to witness. One of Oracle’s lowest points even.

[MarquisAsh]

Will Barbara be in the birds of prey movie?

[mib86]

No, that scene was the opposite of epic. The full scene was actually hard to witness. One of Oracle’s lowest points even.

why do you think so? I read that story a long time ago but i remember that as a great moment.

[kjn]

why do you think so? I read that story a long time ago but i remember that as a great moment.

The trouble was not in that moment but how it was followed up, with Joker pushing Babs and her wheelchair down the stairs.

[millernumber1]

No, that scene was the opposite of epic. The full scene was actually hard to witness. One of Oracle’s lowest points even.

Another reason I have a hard time liking Tony Bedard as a writer...I know it's not wholly his fault, but he drove Birds of Prey AND GCS into the ground...

[atomicbattery]

A while back Carolyn Cocca, an author (Superwomen- Gender, Power and Representation) and college professor, was a guest on Stella Bowman’s Batgirl to Oracle podcast. She noted the meager number of cover appearances for Barbara on the Birds of Prey book, even though Barb was the leader of the team. I think there was some speculation about the lack of respect or interest in depicting a person with a disability, but I would posit that it is simply difficult for an artist to come up with vibrant and graphically exciting depictions of a person sitting in a chair staring at a computer screen. Since their inception, a big- maybe the biggest- reason for the appeal of superhero comics has been the dynamic depiction of human anatomy in colorful costumes. Frankly, I don’t really care to read a comic book with pages of art portraying someone sitting at a screen. This has nothing to do with negation of empowerment, or disregard for persons bravely dealing with a disability. I wouldn’t read a book about an accountant or an air traffic controller either.

I always see comments about Barbara being a more interesting character as Oracle. I never saw it. The only interesting thing, to me, was that she was one of the few characters in comics who was given the agency to talk smack to Batman. I guess she deserved at least that, after Batman and Joker laughin’ it up together at the end of Killing Joke. There were a couple good stories- the Batman Chronicles one, the Nightwing date- but mostly Barbara was a disembodied voice giving directions.
I also see a lot of comments about the Batgirl character being a pale, lame imitation of another character, and how Oracle was so much more than that. There was one poster who used to say that all the time. That poster was very upset about the disappearance of Cassandra Cain for such a long time. But when Cass came back as Orphan, the poster still was unhappy. Turns out they really, really wanted Cass to be Batgirl. There’s a poster here who thinks Barbara is so much better as Oracle, rather than that weak-tea, pathetic, distaff Batman. That person’s favorite book ever is Stephanie Brown’s Batgirl.
I think that they secretly know that there’s something really cool about being Batgirl.
And Barbara Gordon is Batgirl.

[millernumber1]

ThereÂ’s a poster here who thinks Barbara is so much better as Oracle, rather than that weak-tea, pathetic, distaff Batman. That personÂ’s favorite book ever is Stephanie BrownÂ’s Batgirl.
I think they secretly know that thereÂ’s something cool about the Batgirl character.
And Barbara Gordon is Batgirl.

Um. I'm right here.

I've been very honest about how I think and feel about Barbara. I first came to know and love her in Birds of Prey. I didn't watch TAS or read the old comics before TKJ. I've tried to find Barbara as Batgirl stories that I love as much as I love Oracle in Birds of Prey, and the only one that comes close is Year One.

I would point to several of the great Simone arcs of Birds of Prey - she was far from just a voice giving orders and information, from her capture by the evil Senator, right down to her battle against Spy Smasher.

[atomicbattery]

Um. I'm right here.

I've been very honest about how I think and feel about Barbara. I first came to know and love her in Birds of Prey. I didn't watch TAS or read the old comics before TKJ. I've tried to find Barbara as Batgirl stories that I love as much as I love Oracle in Birds of Prey, and the only one that comes close is Year One.

I would point to several of the great Simone arcs of Birds of Prey - she was far from just a voice giving orders and information, from her capture by the evil Senator, right down to her battle against Spy Smasher.

I read every issue of Birds, and I don’t remember those stories.

I ask you to imagine that you are an editor at DC, in a world where there has never been a Batgirl.
After a corporate dictate, you charge three writers with the task of coming up with a biography for the new character ‘Batgirl’.
They return with-
A deadly assassin, the mute daughter of two second-tier DC villains.
The daughter of a third-tier DC villain, who dons a superhero costume to stop her dad.
The daughter of Police Commissioner Jim Gordon, Batman’s greatest civilian ally.

Which one would you pick? Which would any editor pick? For audience shorthand alone. But the possibilities are so rich for powerful storytelling with Barbara that simply aren’t there with Cass and Steph. And the dynamic doesn’t work nearly as well with Barbara as Oracle. The dramatic tension leaks.
I’ll admit that the comics haven’t done much with these key relationships- Barbara and her father, Barbara and the Batfamily- since New52 or Rebirth (a lot of that has to do with a business decision- Batgirl was supposed to be the flagship title of the failed digital-first initiative, and thus autonomy, Burnside and separation from the rest of the Batbooks). There was some good stuff in the Fletcher-Stewart-Tarr Family Business arc, and Scott is getting to do some stuff now.

Maybe you need to go outside the books to broaden what you consider a Barbara Gordon Batgirl story. If you haven’t, as you said, watched the animated series, there’s one episode that shows all the power and emotion that Barbara brings as Batgirl that no other character can, and that no longer works as Oracle. It’s by Paul Dini, and it’s called ‘Over the Edge’ Batgirl is actually barely in it, but it’s all about her- how much being Batgirl means to her, but also her fear that the discovery could destroy her world. Dini got choked up talking about it in an interview with Kevin Smith on the old Fatman on Batman podcast, and I think it’s the most emotionally powerful episode of the series.

There’s a reason writers outside of comics keep returning to Barbara as Batgirl. It’s about her, and her dad, and Batman. I have always supported the Batgirl concept and bought every Cass and Steph book, but there’s so much more material to mine with Barbara.
And it’s about to happen again. Lauren Faust’s incarnation of DC Super Hero Girls comes to Cartoon Network this year. And another generation of kids gets to meet Barbara Gordon as Batgirl.