Gotham - FOX TV Show Discussion

[cranger]

I don't see how anyone could have "little" knowledge of Batman. He's been in how many movies,video games and cartoons now? Batman is a firmly mainstream franchise now

Of course, but what I mean is that for most people these are elements of the Batman lore that help make it feel like Batman without and actual Batman, even if some of them are too obvious.

Bullock is corrupt, not sure how you can listen to him lay it out to Gordon about killing Penguin without getting the jist that he's supposed to kill Gordon if he doesn't go through with it. He doesn't even care about the fact that they didn't get the real killer. Someone mentioned that they played him a bit too much like Glass in Year One but for this show it works.

I still find the execution scene odd but it goes back to me not seeing Bullock as someone who is what would traditionally be called corrupt. Instead he is someone who is trying to survive to fight another day. He does not outright dismiss the fact that they got the wrong guy, he makes it clear that to try to correct their mistake would cost them their jobs and given how harsh Gotham is maybe more.

[Mr. Huston]

I have to admit, I was pretty disappointed with the pilot. Watching it reminded me why I haven't bothered with a network television show like this since The X Files.

There doesn't seem to be any room for subtlety and nuance here. The Riddler can only speak in riddles; Catwoman only travels by rooftop (and is able to be everywhere for some reason); Ivy has to suffer an embarrassing and arbitrary name change, and then do nothing but fondle some plants, apparently. None of these characters have any motivation for behaving the way they do other than one is the Riddler, one is Catwoman, and so on. Of course these characters can all be fleshed out as the show continues, but you only get one chance to make a first impression. The scene with Falcone and Gordon was such a missed opportunity to inject a wee bit of shading to the world and Falcone's character. Instead, we get a great actor deadpanning myopic dialogue and flat out stating the central themes to the show. The audience should be treated with a little more respect, methinks.

Renee Montoya and Crispus Allen are awful. The two weakest performances in the pilot by far, which is saying something. That's just not acceptable moving forward. The scene between Renee and Barbara was thoroughly terrible, from the staging, to the compositions, to the dialogue and wooden acting.

We live in a post 'The Wire' world. I expect much, much more from an hour of drama on television.

[RobinFan4880]

We live in a post 'The Wire' world. I expect much, much more from an hour of drama on television.

There is a reason Network TV only represents a third of the TV viewership now-a-days. It just cannot compete with cable and the way each channel can hone in on a tiny demographic and get the most bang for their buck. Network TV is terrible because it simultaneously demands really high ratings while at the same time being forced to broadcast programs that have as wide of an appeal as possible. That is a recipe for producing bland milk-toast shows. There is a reason Network TV's schedules are dominated by Sitcoms, Sports, reality TV and Police/Trial/Medical shows.

[The Whovian]

Does anyone think that in the scene where Gordon is supposed to kill Penguin, that when it looked like Gordon was going to do it Harvey became disappointed, and that when Gordon acted like he killed him Harvey knew he didn't and that's why he said "atta boy" because deep down he wanted to believe that Gordon was different, and that he would do the right thing. It seemed to point to him saying atta boy because of the perception that Gordon did it but i don't know.

I thought so too, but wasn't sure. I'll have to take a look again. I think fans are beating up the writers of this show way too soon. Maybe this Bullock starts off crooked but because he's paired with Gordon, he sees how wrong he is and becomes a good cop eventually. Give the show more than just one ep guys before making snap judgments.

[nightrider]

I have to admit, I was pretty disappointed with the pilot. Watching it reminded me why I haven't bothered with a network television show like this since The X Files.

There doesn't seem to be any room for subtlety and nuance here. The Riddler can only speak in riddles; Catwoman only travels by rooftop (and is able to be everywhere for some reason); Ivy has to suffer an embarrassing and arbitrary name change, and then do nothing but fondle some plants, apparently. None of these characters have any motivation for behaving the way they do other than one is the Riddler, one is Catwoman, and so on. Of course these characters can all be fleshed out as the show continues, but you only get one chance to make a first impression. The scene with Falcone and Gordon was such a missed opportunity to inject a wee bit of shading to the world and Falcone's character. Instead, we get a great actor deadpanning myopic dialogue and flat out stating the central themes to the show. The audience should be treated with a little more respect, methinks.

Renee Montoya and Crispus Allen are awful. The two weakest performances in the pilot by far, which is saying something. That's just not acceptable moving forward. The scene between Renee and Barbara was thoroughly terrible, from the staging, to the compositions, to the dialogue and wooden acting.

We live in a post 'The Wire' world. I expect much, much more from an hour of drama on television.

Well, I disagree that these characters need motivations on the get go.I thought the scene with Falcone was pretty alright, any scene with Ben Mckenzie is an instant steal. Not saying the show is gangbuster, but its really not as bad as you're saying it. I guess people online are pretty dramatic.

[The Whovian]

Hard to separate Gotham from NYC; I've been to and recognize so many of the places here.

If you watch the Gotham Reborn pre-show, they explain that they filmed NYC from a helicopter and then used CGI to add the gargoyles and the Gotham skyline over the NYC buildings.

[KOSLOX]

I thought it was pretty entertaining. I kind of wished that they wouldn't have tried to get nods to so many characters in but understand why they wanted to do it. I really liked the actors that played Gordon and Bullock and think that once this show finds it's rhythm it could be something really cool.

[Nite-Wing]

I think the show could have been a lot better.
You can already see the comic book influences in some places Selina's character in general seems like they want to get right into her being Catwoman since she's already got the moves and stuff down. The way the mobster mentions the theatrics aren't really his style of killing but Fish Mooney wants it done this way and in walks a costumed butcher. The Riddler's whole character.
The show wants to establish the comic book world or maybe give it lip service but that's not enough to really make it good. Gordon's character is more naive than I'd expect. Not at all like the guy we see in Year One. That might be because he's younger but his overall characterization for this show seems to be just the noble cop which is kinda weak.
Bullock definitely had a lot more nuance to his character being the corrupt partner who was more experienced than Gordon this go around.

I don't really like the idea of a good portion of Batman's Rogue's gallery getting aged up but for characters like Penguin its fine.

[SXVA]

I thought so too, but wasn't sure. I'll have to take a look again. I think fans are beating up the writers of this show way too soon. Maybe this Bullock starts off crooked but because he's paired with Gordon, he sees how wrong he is and becomes a good cop eventually. Give the show more than just one ep guys before making snap judgments.

Ya, people write things off way too soon these days... you got TV series ending after 4 episodes because people aren't willing to give it time.

The characters aren't going to embody the entirety of what they are in one episode, the story isn't going to be like a movie where it all comes together in that one sitting, it's going to develop and build over multiple seasons.

I don't think Bullock is corrupt exactly, he's just a cop who's lost hope and faith in things, probably through experiences of criminals getting away, other cops being corrupt, and/or many arrests not really changing things all that drastically, etc... and that's the way a cop who's lost hope goes about things... within a greyer area.

I think that was established for that contrast between Bullock/Gordon, to where Bullock is going to find his faith and hope again through his relationship with Gordon, and if i'm correct in interpreting that aforementioned scene, that's the first big moment to that end... deep down hoping Gordon is what he seems to be, that he's not going to be like all the others because i think deep down that faith and hope of a good cop is there with Bullock, he just needs someone like Gordon to bring him back to that place once again.

That's going to be the most interesting aspect to the series for me, if that's the case... there was already a lot of it set up in that episode.

[AngelsXDemons]

I admit that I went into this show with a bit of trepidation; fearing the worst but hoping for the best and, in the end I was blown away with pleasant results. The production values of 'Gotham' are on a well polished movie scale. The cinematography is beautifully shot and the chase between Jim Gordon (McKenzie) and the framed Mario was screaming awesome. I like how this show marries the comic book spirit of Batman with the NCIS law/cop drama elements to marvelous results although in further episodes the producers are going to need to be careful not to overplay the police drama aspect so as not to alienate comic book action (I'm looking at you Elementary). There must be a nicely maintained balance between the Batman prequel world building and the NCIS/Law & Order elements.

What really struck me as solid gold was young Selina Kyle witnessing the murder of Bruce Wayne's parents as that certainly lays the foundation for the affection and unusual vigilante/criminal friendship we see between Catwoman and Batman in the pages of the comics and Batman Arkham video games. Her outfit and pet cat certainly is a foreshadowing of her feline future. Like, most everyone else here I certainly agree that David Mazouz shined in the role of adolescent Bruce Wayne; seriously, he is everything that my mind's eye plays out when I read young Bruce in the comics. Camren Bicondova makes for a killer Catgirl and Jada Pinkett Smith just owned the night. As for Penguin, dude, ya can't go wrong with him. Ben McKenzie and Donal Logue have such chemistry together that it's almost like watching William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy in a bromance. FOX totally hit a home-run with 'Gotham' in my book and I certainly pray that don't cancel this show anytime soon and they better not jump the shark.

@AlexanderLuthor, @ RobinFan4880, Shows such as Marvel Agents of Shield, Gotham, Smallville, Young Justice and Arrow should never alienate the family and teenage audience and they shouldn't either. Television viewing families, especially nerdy ones, need to be able hit the coach together and watch together, a show like Gotham or Smallville is obviously appropriate for tweens/teens, and for some younger viewers it's all up to the parent's discretion. I'm sick of people always complaining about a show not being dark this or dark that. Stop whining for everything to be adults only or kids only. We need a middle ground. Television should be at the very least accessible to the general audience. Shows like The CW's Vampire Diaries, FOX's Gotham, Sleepy Hollow and Cartoon Network's Young Justice bridge the divide between tween/teen and young adult/older adult viewers. When I was around the age of ten or so my parents let me watch PG-13 movies which are generally appropriate for the general audience anyway. Back when I was about 12 or 14 my parents also let me watch Mel Gibson's The Patriot. Movies like The Passion of The Christ, Enter The Matrix and 300 really should have only been rated PG-13 anyway. In my opinion, most rated M games such as Halo, DmC, Assassin's Creed, Dragon Age, Prince of Persia and Tomb Raider are basically PG-13 level affairs also and really should just be rated T+ instead of M. DC Comics, Marvel Comics, Darkhorse Comics and their properties such as Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Thor, Spider-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy have always been accessible both to kids and adults and it should remain that way both in the comic page and on television/theatrical screen.

[RobinFan4880]

@AlexanderLuthor, @ RobinFan4880, Shows such as Marvel Agents of Shield, Gotham, Smallville, Young Justice and Arrow should never alienate the family and teenage audience and they shouldn't either. Television viewing families, especially nerdy ones, need to be able hit the coach together and watch together, a show like Gotham or Smallville is obviously appropriate for tweens/teens, and for some younger viewers it's all up to the parent's discretion. I'm sick of people always complaining about a show not being dark this or dark that. Stop whining for everything to be adults only or kids only. We need a middle ground. Television should be at the very least accessible to the general audience. Shows like The CW's Vampire Diaries, FOX's Gotham, Sleepy Hollow and Cartoon Network's Young Justice bridge the divide between tween/teen and young adult/older adult viewers. When I was around the age of ten or so my parents let me watch PG-13 movies which are generally appropriate for the general audience anyway. Back when I was about 12 or 14 my parents also let me watch Mel Gibson's The Patriot. Movies like The Passion of The Christ, Enter The Matrix and 300 really should have only been rated PG-13 anyway. In my opinion, most rated M games such as Halo, DmC, Assassin's Creed, Dragon Age, Prince of Persia and Tomb Raider are basically PG-13 level affairs also and really should just be rated T+ instead of M. DC Comics, Marvel Comics, Darkhorse Comics and their properties such as Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Thor, Spider-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy have always been accessible both to kids and adults and it should remain that way both in the comic page and on television/theatrical screen.

I did not complain about the show not being dark enough. I think it is too dark if you want to go after the "middle ground" of demographics. That doesn't mean we need unicorns and a moral at the end of each episode but making the overt violence less bloody on screen and performing more of it off camera would be better.

PG-13 is not appropriate for general audiences. You should not take a kid into a PG-13 movie.

Most of the games you listed get bumped up in ratings because you are killing people (rather than destroying robots and/or "knocking them out"). Beyond that, the way the killing is shown is also an issue (if you just shot someone with a gun and they fall to the ground is less graphic than shooting someone, watching the bullet blow off their leg). Additionally, games put players in an active rather than passive role. Games should be rated more strictly than movies because you are actively seeking out and creating the violence rather than it simply being presented to you. Beyond that, the amount of time one plays a game vastly outstrips the time one watches a movie. The rating system errs on the caution. Remember the average age of a video game player is almost 30. Kids are not really the core demographic any more. Games are designed for adults should stay in their hands.

Almost every in-continuity, Big Two comic produced now-a-days are rated T. They are not designed nor targeted towards kids. In fact I cringed when I saw Toys-R-Us selling Death of the Family comics right next to all the action figures whose core demographic is not Teens but children.

[doodledude]

Catgirl was the best thing about the episode.To really make this interesting they will need some pre Batman teacher vigilante maybe the Grey Ghost?If it's just a cop show based in Gotham the **** will be boring and will soon be canceled.

[Kid A]

Catgirl was the best thing about the episode.To really make this interesting they will need some pre Batman teacher vigilante maybe the Grey Ghost?If it's just a cop show based in Gotham the **** will be boring and will soon be canceled.

Or a certain famous detective from London.

[Maxpower00044]

It wasn't great, but it was definitely not as bad as some are making it out to be. Hopefully, there's something more to Bullock, because, right now, his character is a little bit too corrupt for my tastes. Montoya and Allen aren't likeable, and I really like those characters, so, I'd like to see them handled better. Riddler was too over the top, they need to dial that back a few notches. I was surprised how much I enjoyed the comedian scene, and I hope they keep having scenes like that. It's a great way to have a "multiple origin" for Joker (something I hope they never do, is an concrete origin). I thought it was shot beautifully, and the acting wasn't hardly as bad as people are making it out to be. The Crime Alley scene was really, really well done. As, for the violence; it wasn't that violent! You should already know to expect violence in a story about the worst city in America. The worst thing they could've done is dumb that down or having violence be off screen.

All in all, will keep watching. Pilots are usually not a good measure for how a show is going to turn out.

[Maxpower00044]

Almost every in-continuity, Big Two comic produced now-a-days are rated T. They are not designed nor targeted towards kids. In fact I cringed when I saw Toys-R-Us selling Death of the Family comics right next to all the action figures whose core demographic is not Teens but children.

Actually, most comics at Marvel are rated Teen +, and so should most DC comics. It makes me laugh that a comic like 'Batman' is only teen, but 'Batwoman' is T+, just because it stars a lesbian character. Pathetic...