Ultimate End #1 SPOILERS

[Plawsky]

What? In 3 weeks Secret Wars still can't be going on? Why does it have to be after Secret Wars?

It is during Secret Wars. I was saying that it was post-Incursion.

Both the 1610 and the 616 characters know that they're on some new Earth which Doom is in charge of however they seem to think that this new Earth was created not by the (final) Incursion but instead by the malfunctioning portal that the 1610 Stark and Cho had in their possession that collapsed in All New X-Men #31. Hence this world is (mostly) post-Original Sin 616 Earth (normal 616 Stark + Doc Green) and post-Cataclysm 1610 Earth. Costume changes don't count.

They don't think they're on a new earth. Battleworld is the only "Earth" they know. For whatever reason, one that may be revealed soon, these characters don't know anything about "616" or "1610" or even "Earth." They know that Doom is their god, that travel between regions is illegal, and that the portal did something that won't make Doom happy.

So 1610, 616 and all the other patchwork of various Earth's are recreations and take place at various times within their own continuity (partly) or seem to be part of an entirely new continuity altogether (I say this because I don't believe there was ever an A-Force Earth and I'm pretty sure all those female super heroes are copies of the 616 versions.

The simpler answer is just that they're either mind wiped or new creations of Doom that used 1610 and 616 as templates. The idea that these "Ultimate" characters were plucked from some pre-Incursion time of UU history is just too convoluted, and only opens up more problems.

[Balfro]

It is during Secret Wars. I was saying that it was post-Incursion.



They don't think they're on a new earth. Battleworld is the only "Earth" they know. For whatever reason, one that may be revealed soon, these characters don't know anything about "616" or "1610" or even "Earth." They know that Doom is their god, that travel between regions is illegal, and that the portal did something that won't make Doom happy.



The simpler answer is just that they're either mind wiped or new creations of Doom that used 1610 and 616 as templates. The idea that these "Ultimate" characters were plucked from some pre-Incursion time of UU history is just too convoluted, and only opens up more problems.

I didn't mean they were plucked from different times... I just mean that the versions on Battleworld are not necessarily from the present, be they re-creations or what have you.

It's actually impossible for some characters to be their "present" selves becuase some universe' have been destroyed, what, several months ago? Longer? Yet here they are. So that alone can tell us that every character on Battleworld isn't necessarily from current times in terms of their state of mind and what continuity applies.

Actually this is writers gold becuase they can make up anything and we can't really argue it :P

[SpeedofLife]

My guess is that all the universes in Battleworld are "snapshots" taken from the Library of Worlds.

[jackolover]

Okay, I have All New X-Men #31, and the portal from 1610 to 616 collapsed way back in Original Sin as the X-Men were reading Charles will in UXM #24.

Then, in Ultimate End #1, we see that the Incursion happened to transfer 616 Stark into the 1610 or Battleworld. So if this incident with the portal exploding was not Carmens doing, and the Last Incursion happened in ANXM#31, did AXIS happen in Battleworld?

[Drakeon]

Okay, I have All New X-Men #31, and the portal from 1610 to 616 collapsed way back in Original Sin as the X-Men were reading Charles will in UXM #24.

Then, in Ultimate End #1, we see that the Incursion happened to transfer 616 Stark into the 1610 or Battleworld. So if this incident with the portal exploding was not Carmens doing, and the Last Incursion happened in ANXM#31, did AXIS happen in Battleworld?

Marvel doesnt ever get thier timelines right so I suggest not trying so hard to put it together. Its not possible.

[Sardorim]

Seems that Secret Wars #3 preview confirms my theory.

They saved who they could aka the living 616 and 1610 characters not on the Life Raft.

Those that were dead before the Incursions or were on the Life Raft had Fakes made based off what they know up to a certain point. Hence why Cyclops lacks Phoenix, Spider-Man is confused about everything and Iron Man isn't Superior. Doom wouldn't really know that as he was pretty busy.

With that said, I wonder how the characters, when they remember, will take it when the fakes end up dying or vanishing after Secret Wars is over as well as how the fakes take to the news of being fakes and their existence requires Doom to remain God.

[Drakeon]

The preview just simply says Doom created what he couldnt save. It doesnt prove or say definitively who is who and what is what. Until something more exact is said its only a possibility.

There are still too many holes for that simple line to explain everything.

[Sardorim]

It's specifically lists 616 and 1610 at the zone.

I doubt Doom would have bothered making fakes of everyone. Seems to me that they only made fakes to buffer out the saved zones.

[vitruvian]

Why did the Thors show up if no infringement to Dooms Law occurred?

Presumably going beyond the borders of the dimension (if that was even really what happened and not just what they remember) is at least as big a no no to Doom.

[vitruvian]

I was having trouble understanding the dimensional dialogue. If the multiverse is dead then there are not any other dimension than Battleworld. Then I read this in Breevort's tumblr:

Q: Why is Ultimate End talking about Dimensional rifts? There aren't any other dimensions, just Battleworld, it didn't make any sense to me.

A: There aren’t any other planets, but there are at least four dimensions, including time. And if you create a dimensional rift, then suddenly you get two separate Manhattans existing atop one another, rather than side-by-side or in different sections of Battleworld.
---------------------------------------------------
So what I understand is that 616 y 1610 were different domains, like all the others in Battleworld, but reality has folded on top or itself, as 616 Tony says, so now both domains are now occupying the same space. The question is: why has reality folded? What will Doom do to solve this? Anyway, I didn't like the issue.

That's a very disingenuous answer, given what a 'multidimensional rift' generally means in comic books (including many Marvel comics) and SF... which is not a portal between locations in one dimension (as in reality) that involves the three spatial dimensions of height, depth, and width, or even a time portal.

I'll be very curious as well as to what the inhabitants of Battleworld - those who do travel between the realms whether with or without permission - think is the reason for there being multiple versions of many people such as Tony Stark, if they have no concept of different realities or parallel worlds or alternate universes. Is it just the God Creator Doom getting lazy or being unable to think of more than a certain number of unique individuals?

[vitruvian]

Actually, to even think that any region of Battleworld takes place in a post-incursion continuity is kind of silly... As at the time of the final incursion all other universe' have been destroyed hence no characters from those worlds would even still be alive. Same goes for 1610 and 616. We SAW both of those Earth's get destroyed, killing all life on them. And if that isn't proof enough, Hickman slapped a very official looking RIP for the two universe' on the last page of Secret Wars #1.

So 1610, 616 and all the other patchwork of various Earth's are recreations and take place at various times within their own continuity (partly) or seem to be part of an entirely new continuity altogether (I say this because I don't believe there was ever an A-Force Earth and I'm pretty sure all those female super heroes are copies of the 616 versions.

Dialogue from preview of Secret Wars #3 says that's wrong. They saved what they could, created the rest, so at least some regions of Battleworld are the actual pieces of actual old universes that were saved. Therefore, not all of those universes was actually destroyed, as some pieces were saved. That leaves it up in the air as to whether this one region of merged Manhattan is formed from the pieces of the original 616 and 1610 that were saved, or if they're recreations as you suggest (although at least the characters present who were supposed to be on the life raft would seem likely to be recreations).

The characters in every realm are aware that other realms exist, but probably don't know that there are multiple versions of themselves occupying those realms (hence why travel between realms is illegal). So having two realms joined by a portal and both realms finding out that the other contains alternate versions of themselves is on par with opening a gateway to an alternate universe. They know they could just fly to another realm and make the same discoveries but literally the fear of God prevents them from doing so.

They are all aware of Doom. They are all aware that they are on a planet called Battleworld. They are all aware that other realms exist and that travel between them is prohibited. They are NOT aware of a planet called Earth. They are NOT aware that they should BE on a planet called Earth. They are NOT aware that the world they should be on extends past Manhattan (ie they don't know of a place called Europe, or the Pacific Ocean, or even the N-Zone). All they know is Manhattan and a whole planet of unexplored territory that they are not even allowed to explore.

But I guess we'll see. There will probably be dialogue in the next issue which contradicts this whole post and even other established continuity in the other Secret Wars series' knowing Bendis :P

It's travel between the realms without permission that's illegal, not all travel... otherwise the Thors would have to be arresting themselves and the Barons would be in trouble just for showing up in the High Court. And at least the Thors and the Barons would therefore be quite aware of the existence of duplicate versions of certain characters.

There's also an interesting question... if they don't recall there ever having been anything to their realm or realms besides Manhattan.... where do all the supplies come from? Cities that size don't feed themselves.

[jackolover]

Dialogue from preview of Secret Wars #3 says that's wrong. They saved what they could, created the rest, so at least some regions of Battleworld are the actual pieces of actual old universes that were saved. Therefore, not all of those universes was actually destroyed, as some pieces were saved. That leaves it up in the air as to whether this one region of merged Manhattan is formed from the pieces of the original 616 and 1610 that were saved, or if they're recreations as you suggest (although at least the characters present who were supposed to be on the life raft would seem likely to be recreations).





It's travel between the realms without permission that's illegal, not all travel... otherwise the Thors would have to be arresting themselves and the Barons would be in trouble just for showing up in the High Court. And at least the Thors and the Barons would therefore be quite aware of the existence of duplicate versions of certain characters.

There's also an interesting question... if they don't recall there ever having been anything to their realm or realms besides Manhattan.... where do all the supplies come from? Cities that size don't feed themselves.

I did read one of the tie-ins mention an occupant stating he is growing food for everyone, I just don't remember which one. But certainly the packaging manufacturers would have to be there in the city, as well as heavy manufacture. It would all have to be self contained, or, magic plays a part here.

[Balfro]

See I think that's the point. With so many inconsistencies in reality the characters themselves might one day start to question their very existence. And as we've seen in Secret Wars #2 any questioning of Doom's will and the history of Battleworld immediately cut off (by Stephan). This is sort of like a Matrix scenario; All the characters are supposed to live out their lives (in this case well-aware of other nations and Doom himself) but they aren't supposed to question the fact that absolutely none of it makes sense. And they don't even see anything wrong with their world either.

Well, Old Man Logan seems to at least be questioning everything enough to break the rules, so that might be the beginning of Doom's world falling apart.


My main question, and maybe this is just because I don't read 616, but why is Strange allied with Doom and calling each other "old friend"? They clearly remember the 616 of old, so were they friends there too? That doesn't seem right. Dr. Strange is a hero and Doom is the worst kind of evil. Seems unlikely they'd find a hobby that they both like and became besties through that...

[vitruvian]

I did read one of the tie-ins mention an occupant stating he is growing food for everyone, I just don't remember which one. But certainly the packaging manufacturers would have to be there in the city, as well as heavy manufacture. It would all have to be self contained, or, magic plays a part here.

There was a tie-in other than Ultimate End showing what goes on in merged Manhattan, specifically? Some of the other realms are a lot bigger and have room for some farmland, but there's pretty much no way for a city the size of Manhattan to grow enough food to feed its population.... and even if you were trying to do so, it would have to look very different, with basically every park, rooftop, and maybe street devoted to greenhouses and gardens.

Unless Doom is magically zapping food into the supermarkets, of course.

[Shai-Hulud]

There was a tie-in other than Ultimate End showing what goes on in merged Manhattan, specifically? Some of the other realms are a lot bigger and have room for some farmland, but there's pretty much no way for a city the size of Manhattan to grow enough food to feed its population.... and even if you were trying to do so, it would have to look very different, with basically every park, rooftop, and maybe street devoted to greenhouses and gardens.

Unless Doom is magically zapping food into the supermarkets, of course.

I was thinking about exactly this yesterday. My imaginary fix was ... Star Trek replicators. Why not? Surely, Doom can either invent some or has appropriated and studied (and improved, of course!) the relevant alien tech.