Pitch a Direction: Titans

[bretmaverick2]

My first thought is that characters like Donna Troy, Garth/Tempest, Lilith, Mal and Karen Duncan need limited series of varying lengths to clean up their histories and set them up to move forward. Arsenal and Nightwing have had lots of independent stories to set them up. Figure out what makes them unique. THEN put them together again.

[comicstar100]

I agree I like the idea of JLU type Titans books. I would merge the Teen Titans/Young Justice teams with the main Titans roster. Heck I'd even have a few time displaced teen Legion memebers join. Expand Titans to be a huge team that mentors new superheroes, stops world ending threats and at it's core is more of a family than the League ever could be.

[Digifiend]

My first thought is that characters like Donna Troy, Garth/Tempest, Lilith, Mal and Karen Duncan need limited series of varying lengths to clean up their histories and set them up to move forward. Arsenal and Nightwing have had lots of independent stories to set them up. Figure out what makes them unique. THEN put them together again.

A mini called Titans: Origins? Could do it in anthology format doing two members per issue.

[Dred]

If you want a legitimate pitch to advance the Titans in the broader lens of DC then the solution is simple: you do what DC has been doing for years in reverse.

Every single time DC uses the Titans in anything, even their own book, the end statement is always the same; The Titans suck and are useless, the JL up and saves the day because the jobbers cant. The team was together barely two years and it amounted to being entirely left out of the ongoing Rebirth plot, jobbing out offscreen in both No Justice and Metal, being broken up by the JL, and finally being slaughtered in HIC while the JL feature prominently and importantly in all of these. It is a conscious prerogative to **** the Titans at the benefit of the JL and everyone is happy about it.

So, the dynamic. Now, obviously you can't **** on the JL as hard as DC does the Titans because people would get upset that Batman got shown up. So you set up a small, No Justice size event. You direct and advertise it as normal, treat it like any event, but... instead if the JL overcoming the 11th hour difficulty they lose instead. They become inoperative, across the board, one way or another for a couple of months.

You then open up the JL comic after this as the Titans figuring out what happened, devising a plan, and rescuing the JL. It'd be 3 to 4 issues showing the Titans functioning on equal ground. Then, with the JL rescued, you have them team up to defeat whatever big bad thing that won before. If the cast is too big, you sideline via injury during the first arc JL members who don't tie in with the Titans and the overall concept. Probably Superman, MMH and Cyborg, etc.

After said successful team up mini event you relaunch Titans and make them equal or superior to the JL. You include a mix of them and the JL in future events instead of sidelining either like they do the Titans so often. You bring in big, worldly threats for the titans to deal with. You cross them over deliberately and positively, like how they used to do net positive for everyone JLA/JSA mashups.

The problem with Titans is not the characters. It is the artificial shackles imposed by those who control the characters. JL used to suck when they did the same **** to McDuffie, too

[Ascended]

Honestly, there's so many issues with the brand Im not sure how DC could fix it. I myself think the Titans name needs to be put on a shelf and ignored for a few years.

The Titans have become a huge hot mess. It's confining and twisted, and contradictory. NTT/Fab5 reunions are what is expected, but they rarely sell because it just recycles old crap we've seen a hundred times. New faces aren't what's expected, so they rarely sell because it doesn't feel like the Titans. And it's all had a negative impact on several fan favorite characters as well as the team name.

I think creatively, the core problem is the question of the Titans' identity. Are the Titans the adult former sidekicks still kicking ass together, or are the Titans the team that young teen heroes join and then graduate from? The brand can't be both, it confuses what the team is supposed to be and stand for. Of course, the real root of the problem is that management appears to have a bias, or at least a lack of a plan and/or interest in both the Dick and Tim generations, which is basically everyone who's ever been a Titan. Hard to do much with any version of the team when they're all being used for fodder. And either way you slice it, the Titans are trapped under the League, who DC won't allow to be surpassed. They're either the less effective Justice League B team who will never do stuff as cool as the JLA, or the teachers at Justice League Academy training the kids who will eventually have higher status.

So I think you pick a direction, lean into it, and then take it all to its next logical step. As it stands, the Titans brand just isnt working in print, but maybe this is the "awkward" phase in the property's lifespan and the next phase will have more game.

If you keep the NTT roster, you drop the idea of the Titans as a team, and instead you make it a designation for League members. You let Dick and Donna and Wally and whoever join the League, and you let each character take the next step up in their personal journeys as well. Maybe Raven finally defeats her father, only to realize that his throne *must* be occupied, so now Raven rules a realm in hell. You finally write Cyborg with his full, Mother-Box-for-a-heart potential (dude should be Superman powerful, if not more!), maybe you equip Nightwing with a Batman Beyond type suit and some Nth metal escrima sticks. And you write them as capable League members, running their own ops from the Watchtower. The core League is always going to be bigger and badder, but that doesn't mean the (former) Titans can't be big and bad themselves. And as League members, in a book with "Justice/League" on the cover (Titans of Justice? Justice League: Titans? Justice Legion? Justice Legion of Titans? Gettin silly here), they already have more prestige; they might be Justice League B.....but the Titans name doesnt have "League" pedigree. And the young teen heroes who can no longer be Titans can go back to being Young Justice, Super Sons, and/or whatever other new name ends up sticking.

If the Titans are the young teen heroes, you treat it like the Young Justice cartoon fused with the X-Men. JLU meets high school. Bring in a few older Titans as mentors, like Donna, Dick, or Kori, as well as a couple new faces of similar age and experience (Power Girl, Atom Smasher, Jade, Firestorm, whoever) and then have a ton of teen students; expected faces like Tim and Cassie and new faces like Supergirl, Stargirl, or Vibe. They run League sanctioned ops, with League resources under League rules. Each mission (story) includes one or two mentors with three to five teens, sorta JLU style. And the older Titans who aren't teachers, now free from the noose that is the Titans, can still take those next steps up in their own stories; Raven as a hell lord, Vic as a demi-New God, maybe Starfire ruling Tamaran if she doesnt teach, whatever.

[WonderScott]

I'd have two books that interact and are intertwined. "Titans" and "Titans: Outsiders."

Titans is the public face of the team that identifies, protects, and trains emerging metahumans AND seems particularly proficient at stopping and apprehending B-, C-, and D-List villains. Titans: Outsiders are also part of the Titans team, but the covert, clandestine operations team that is responsible for gaining intelligence and infiltrating the necessary circles to make the latter goal of the Titan's possible. They work together, but not all members of the former team know all the members of the latter team.

It definitely plays off the Young Justice animated series idea, but I'm also interested in exploring what happens to the villain community when the Titans start showing up to take them down. Who rises to the occasion? Who, surprisingly, stays one step ahead of the Titans out of skill and smarts? How does this transform new villains created for the series or other DC villains we haven't seen in a long time, when this "Titans Hunt" begins?

Separately, after a couple of years/seasons of stories, I'd spin out another Titans series that propels some members of each the Titans's and Titans: Outsiders's teams to the future where they join the Legion for about 1-2 years. I'd like to see how that affects the two teams in present and one team in the future.

[SiegePerilous02]

Honestly, there's so many issues with the brand Im not sure how DC could fix it. I myself think the Titans name needs to be put on a shelf and ignored for a few years.

Your entire post is accurate, but this boils it down to the core problem. DiDio's stances on things are making the situation considerably worse, but the problem with the Titans brand existed before he was in charge. The League was likely not going to go away even pre-COIE so the Titans were always going to have to fight a bit to stay out of their shadow. The combination of Perez leaving as the co-creator and the Titans moving onto being adult heroes who could no longer have the mission statement of being the former sidekicks coming together and growing up into adults started the gradual decline. Because it didn't seem a back up mission statement was ever in the cards, unlike their cross company counterparts the X-Men, who definitely don't have that problem.

COIE merging all the Earths and getting all the superhero groups on one Earth where they step on each other's toes didn't help the situation either. And a new generation coming up behind them to fill the roles they couldn't go back to wasn't a total problem until that generation got the Teen Titans name, reinforcing the stigma that this team can only have teenage heroes/sidekicks on it.

I think giving the brand a break comics-wise is for the best, while focusing on giving its most important members new directions to go in. Leave it on the shelf and let it get its dignity back. It needs to be a Fab 5/NTT reunion whenever it comes back, but we're gonna need better writers than we've gotten previously or else it won't be worth it. A writer who can inject some genuine new ideas while making the old ones new again. Pairing Jimenez with whoever it is probably couldn't hurt either.

[Dred]

Your entire post is accurate, but this boils it down to the core problem. DiDio's stances on things are making the situation considerably worse, but the problem with the Titans brand existed before he was in charge. The League was likely not going to go away even pre-COIE so the Titans were always going to have to fight a bit to stay out of their shadow. The combination of Perez leaving as the co-creator and the Titans moving onto being adult heroes who could no longer have the mission statement of being the former sidekicks coming together and growing up into adults started the gradual decline. Because it didn't seem a back up mission statement was ever in the cards, unlike their cross company counterparts the X-Men, who definitely don't have that problem.

COIE merging all the Earths and getting all the superhero groups on one Earth where they step on each other's toes didn't help the situation either. And a new generation coming up behind them to fill the roles they couldn't go back to wasn't a total problem until that generation got the Teen Titans name, reinforcing the stigma that this team can only have teenage heroes/sidekicks on it.

I think giving the brand a break comics-wise is for the best, while focusing on giving its most important members new directions to go in. Leave it on the shelf and let it get its dignity back. It needs to be a Fab 5/NTT reunion whenever it comes back, but we're gonna need better writers than we've gotten previously or else it won't be worth it. A writer who can inject some genuine new ideas while making the old ones new again. Pairing Jimenez with whoever it is probably couldn't hurt either.

Disappearing from the public eye is the worst possible thing you can do to increase the prominence of a brand. I don't get how anyone can think a brand disappearing for years can help it.

This disappearance and reunion you're talking about already happened, too. Lest we forget how they cashed in on nostalgia only to prevent the writer from writing literally any story he wanted to.

[Harpsikord]

I see a lot of points in this thread. Some of them are points that I agree with, others are points that I very much disagree with. For starters: shelving the brand is a mistake at this point in time. Could I have seen a time where not having a Teen Titans team would've been beneficial? Yes, during the New 52 era specifically. But now the (Teen) Titans have a hit television show on a moderately successful streaming service as well as a, whether you like it or not, incredibly successful and lucrative children's TV show. To have them disappear from the comics entirely is a bad idea, and it's not going to happen, not completely. And I wouldn't want it to. The Titans literally brought DC back from bankruptcy, I don't care what Didio says, they deserve respect.

I was going to come in here and suggest a Titans team that outside of a core four doesn't have a set team, and I'm still going to suggest it, but that isn't going to be my main point because I've come up with another that I like more based on the responses here. But first, that team: cancel the Teen Titans team indefinitely, to start. There is only one team of Titans, and it is this one. A team on part with the Justice League that deals with similar, if more centralized, threats. It is lead by Nightwing, Donna Troy, Starfire, and Wally West. These are the only four members of the team that appear in every arc and if we're working off of current continuity, make it five and change Wally to both Raven and Beast Boy. They are the constants. Otherwise, the remaining two to four spots on the team belong to the other Titans - Omen, Bumblebee, Guardian, Cyborg, etc, who sub in based on the arc. There's also a younger team that takes the focus sometimes that the Titans are teaching. They're all based in the tower.

The other option that I like more upon reflection is a group of Titans that is diametrically opposed to the Justice League. The League hasn't had a team that directly opposes the things that they do other than as a group of villains as a long time, they haven't had a true heroic rival. Why can't or shouldn't that be the heroes that they have trained that should for all intents and purposes not be as jaded as the league is. A more optimistic, A-Level superhero team. That's what the Titans should be. Define the Titans as being on the same level of the League in an event that forces them to oppose each other... philosophically. And The Titans should be written as the ones in the right, and correctly so at that. Then spin the team out of the event (in an ideal world for me this would be Nightwing, Donna Troy, Cyborg, Omen, Beast Boy, Terra, and Starfire) and have them deal with Justice League level threats as well as threats that are limited to the Titans. Have them prove their worth and continue to paint them as good as the League in other titles as well as their own. Maintain the rivalry, but make it a rather friendly one. Make the Titans the... friendlier alternative to the League. Still have them based in a Titans Tower, ideally the one in New York or a newly introduced Jump City. Where the League is untouchable in their lofty satellite... the Titans portray themselves as human and approachable.

[Ascended]

I see a lot of points in this thread. Some of them are points that I agree with, others are points that I very much disagree with. For starters: shelving the brand is a mistake at this point in time. Could I have seen a time where not having a Teen Titans team would've been beneficial? Yes, during the New 52 era specifically. But now the (Teen) Titans have a hit television show on a moderately successful streaming service as well as a, whether you like it or not, incredibly successful and lucrative children's TV show. To have them disappear from the comics entirely is a bad idea, and it's not going to happen, not completely. And I wouldn't want it to. The Titans literally brought DC back from bankruptcy, I don't care what Didio says, they deserve respect.

I love your post. It's very insightful, creative, and polite. Now! My rebuttal on this point.

It's true that the Titans are really damn big right now in larger media (I'd even include YJ's success there, since they're are so similar). However, outside of one or two exceptions, larger media success doesn't trickle down to comics. So the comics are not benefiting from that success, and in the case of TTGO! and its predecessor, that's a stretch of years. So it really doesnt matter if the Titans are "Avengers" popular with the general audience because their comic isn't seeing any of the love, and its the comics we're discussing.

I totally agree that they deserve respect, but this *is* respect. It's respecting the IP enough to know when to make it sit down, instead of running it to death (which is what's happening now).

There is brand recognition and expectation, but the Titans no longer have a high degree of brand trust, which renders the rest largely moot. The IP has been in decline (in print) for thirty years. It's a mid-level seller when it's not fighting off cancellation, which shows that although fans expect the Titans to be on the shelf, they're not buying it. That also means there's no financial incentive to keep the title going; lots of IP's can be mid-level sellers, and if the Titans weather the monthly ebb and flow of the market slightly better than most, they're far from profitable enough to not be replaced in the schedule. There's no monetary reason for the book to exist, and the only reason to keep it going is to meet the brand expectations of your audience, who're busy buying other products. Brand expectation matters a lot, but the IP has also gotten a bad reputation and is seen by many as toxic (or on its way), and that'll do far more damage than low sales. Not seeing publication at all is actually better than the alternative of the diminishing returns DC has been getting. The longer the book stays on the shelf but doesn't measure up, the deeper the hole the IP digs for itself. If they're not being published, they're not digging deeper. No one will forget they exist, and nostalgia will only increase demand for their return. And waiting a year or two for the stink to wear off gives you time to find the right creator with the right pitch and status quo to (hopefully) make the Titans' inevitable return worthy of the IP's history.

We've seen this done to any number of properties over the years. The FF just returned after a break, and their absence definitely generated more noise and hype than their book had generated in ages, to the benefit of the IP today. Hawkman was so toxic DC wouldn't even let Morrison use him in JLA, but after a few years Johns was able to bring him back and his series held out for what, 75-100 issues? Pretty good for a IP fans wouldn't touch just a few years before. Fans who weren't buying the last JSA series (either the New52 version or the pre-52 one) are missing the team now and promising to check it out if DC will return them. Putting a product on the shelf temporarily is a often used strategy when the product is struggling but still has pedigree. Seriously, my suggestion isn't all that left field. It's tried and true. Doesn't always work of course, nothing does, but it works often enough.

Sometimes, absence really does make the heart grow fonder.

The other option that I like more upon reflection is a group of Titans that is diametrically opposed to the Justice League. The League hasn't had a team that directly opposes the things that they do other than as a group of villains as a long time, they haven't had a true heroic rival. Why can't or shouldn't that be the heroes that they have trained that should for all intents and purposes not be as jaded as the league is. A more optimistic, A-Level superhero team. That's what the Titans should be. Define the Titans as being on the same level of the League in an event that forces them to oppose each other... philosophically. And The Titans should be written as the ones in the right, and correctly so at that. Then spin the team out of the event (in an ideal world for me this would be Nightwing, Donna Troy, Cyborg, Omen, Beast Boy, Terra, and Starfire) and have them deal with Justice League level threats as well as threats that are limited to the Titans. Have them prove their worth and continue to paint them as good as the League in other titles as well as their own. Maintain the rivalry, but make it a rather friendly one. Make the Titans the... friendlier alternative to the League. Still have them based in a Titans Tower, ideally the one in New York or a newly introduced Jump City. Where the League is untouchable in their lofty satellite... the Titans portray themselves as human and approachable.

I mean, DC is never going to let the Titans get one over on the League but I'm interested in the idea and I totally support anything that starts letting the Titans be taken seriously, as peers to their former mentors (peers, we might be able to get. Superior isnt gonna happen). What's the divide you would use to separate them and how would you spin them to make them stand out? I considered something sorta like what you're suggesting but couldn't find a throughline that worked and made them viable, equal, and unique.

[Dred]

They literally did not have the Titans on the shelf for 6 years. What bigger break do you want?

Superior certainly could happen. Happened once already.

[Harpsikord]

I love your post. It's very insightful, creative, and polite.

Thanks! I try my best to keep things at least rather middle-ground.

Now! My rebuttal on this point.

Sometimes, absence really does make the heart grow fonder.

Can I just say that I love it when a member has a well thought out, and written, and articulated rebuttal to something that I say? It feels like that happens so seldom on CBR and it's refreshing when someone actually does it! So thank you. And I do agree - as much as I don't think it's necessary to shelf the brand I do agree that distance makes the heart grow fonder, especially for a beloved brand like the (Teen) Titans. Look at what happened with the Fantastic Four when they were at a similar point that the Titans are, without the backing media. I can only imagine something similar or better would happen with the Titans if they got the proper creative talent on the book.

I mean, DC is never going to let the Titans get one over on the League but I'm interested in the idea and I totally support anything that starts letting the Titans be taken seriously, as peers to their former mentors (peers, we might be able to get. Superior isnt gonna happen). What's the divide you would use to separate them and how would you spin them to make them stand out? I considered something sorta like what you're suggesting but couldn't find a throughline that worked and made them viable, equal, and unique.

Oh, I'm well aware that in their current state it's never going to happen - I just think of events like Avengers vs X-Men where even though the big hero team was the team that "won," it was the "underdog" team that ended up "winning" and being in the right. I'd settle for something like that. The fallout of AvX catapulted the X-Men to a new all time high (and then editorial turned against them, but we aren't talking about that) and I think that would work for what I'm going for here.

As for the actual event? I'd keep it semi-simple and brand related, and make it something that maintains the Titans being at least part of the central focus: Raven. The Titans literally have what amounts to a ticking time bomb resting on their primary membership much like the X-Men's connection to the Phoenix Force, and that alone is Raven. Raven's the daughter of the literal DC equivalent to the Judeo-Christian Satan, and it's been a part of her character that she threatens to become like her father, to the point that she actually has on multiple occasions and it's basically been a non-factor. What if the next time, it isn't? What if the Titans/Justice League get warned of a Trigon event that turns into something bigger and deeper to do with Raven, what if Raven is (as in the Titans show) the literal anti-Christ, the bringer of the end times? The League would obviously want to contain and stop the threat as quickly and cleanly as possible if there is no other option, which they'd be led to believe.

Then there's the Titans, who know Raven. Raven is one of their allies and friends. They know her better than the League does. Clearly, she can't be this big bad that they now believe her to be - so they'd protect her at all costs. It's only natural. And in the end, while it may look like Raven really IS going to be this big bad and do the bad thing, it would turn out that there was an equal chance that she would be the one that brought an end to the madness... which she does, but at a cost: Trigon is gone, and his realm is locked away, but it needs a ruler. And that ruler is Raven.

It's a half victory for both teams when they come together to help Raven claim their throne but bridges are burnt and bonds can't exist in the same way that they used to. And in the aftermath both teams coexist separately and are clearly superheroes, but they oppose one another.

[Factor]

I quite like the idea of having the Titans as the more "approachable" team, while the League are essentially gods among men.
Titans could be the team the population would actually contact for help, while the League would choose their on missions based on threat level.

[Digifiend]

The other option that I like more upon reflection is a group of Titans that is diametrically opposed to the Justice League. The League hasn't had a team that directly opposes the things that they do other than as a group of villains as a long time, they haven't had a true heroic rival. Why can't or shouldn't that be the heroes that they have trained that should for all intents and purposes not be as jaded as the league is. A more optimistic, A-Level superhero team. That's what the Titans should be. Define the Titans as being on the same level of the League in an event that forces them to oppose each other... philosophically. And The Titans should be written as the ones in the right, and correctly so at that. Then spin the team out of the event (in an ideal world for me this would be Nightwing, Donna Troy, Cyborg, Omen, Beast Boy, Terra, and Starfire) and have them deal with Justice League level threats as well as threats that are limited to the Titans. Have them prove their worth and continue to paint them as good as the League in other titles as well as their own. Maintain the rivalry, but make it a rather friendly one. Make the Titans the... friendlier alternative to the League. Still have them based in a Titans Tower, ideally the one in New York or a newly introduced Jump City. Where the League is untouchable in their lofty satellite... the Titans portray themselves as human and approachable.

The JL satellite was destroyed in Priest's JL run, before No Justice. They're based in the Hall of Justice now.

What you're suggesting is actually very similar to Marvel's Champions. During Civil War II, the teens didn't like that adult superheroes Iron Man and Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) were fighting each other (the dispute was about predictive justice, as a new hero called Ulysses could see possible futures). When Iron Man was knocked into a coma, the Avengers fell apart. Spider-Man (Miles Morales) and Nova (Sam Alexander) quit, then so did Ms Marvel (Kamala Khan) when new team leader Captain America (Sam Wilson, aka Falcon) refused to help clean up after an incident. Kamala sulked for a while, but then decided to form her own team. She recruited Miles and Nova, Miles then suggested Amadeus Cho, and he in turn brought in Viv Vision. That was the start of the team, and they've recruited more since then, mostly but not all teenagers. They actually have so many members now that a reinforcements roster has been created, essentially reservists. Usually the Avengers and Champions handle different threats (since their philosophies are different), but there was one incident where both teams turned up. That arc was called Worlds Collide, and while the two teams butted heads, they ended up working together to save the world. Since then, the teams have respected each other. As a direct result, the youngest Avenger, the new Wasp Nadia Van Dyne, ended up working on both teams. That didn't last long though as the No Surrender event caused that Avengers team to disband, so any issue of loyalty never got addressed. A replacement Avengers team with an entirely new lineup formed afterwards, which has yet to interact with the Champions. You suggest that the Titans should be the friendly alternate to the JL, and that applies to Marvel's teams as well. The current Avengers are based in Antarctica and led by an African King (Black Panther). The Champions have been doing some recruiting using a social media platform called The Forums, so they're definitely easier to contact.

[greatmetropolitan]

Effectively I'd be doing My Hero Academia by way of the JLA, which is almost what Johns was doing when he started.

The Titans would be a the group to help, train and educate young people with powers who want to be superheroes. Dick, Donna, Starfire, Raven and a few other legends would be the "teachers". They'd be members of the JLA, but just seconded to the teaching division. (I see the JLA being the Justice League Unlimited, with the main squad, Superman, Batman et al calling in specialist help when needed. Titans is the young development unit, under the eye of Leaguers like Nightwing and Donna, Outsiders is Black Ops etc.)

It'd be a fun book, taking the best themes and tropes from YA fiction, teen dramas and superhero stories and combining it into a really hard hitting, emotional, optimistic and fun super book.