Do you think Barry Allen's true origin will ever make a comeback?

[Güicho]

every time Flash gows tragic, it turns out crappy.

Except like I said the third gen Flash who was built on the tragedy and sacrifice of Barry Allen (and fueled by the constant reminder of it) . That was great! ....Right!?

The irony that Wally's thread is titled "The Flash Is Not About Tragedy" just emphasizes the BS of the mantra.
Or did the character find strength and meaning in the tragedy and sacrifice?

Yes he did! That and the tragedy is a part of the character, it helped define him.

Now I'm asking, show me a scene of this upbringing that defined Barry? Or a line of dialogue where he references it.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I don't think anyone said "was never about". People said "it isn't", and essentially, it isn't.

Every time Flash goes tragic, it turns out crappy.

the third gen Flash was built on the tragedy of Barry Allen.

Mentorship. Example. Heroic freaking sacrifice. Legacy. Not "tragedy".

Barry died saving the whole of existence, willingly, at the cost of his own life, he was not stabbed to death in a kitchen floor. And what motivated Wally was the man he was, not the pile of bones he became and some sublimation on correcting it.

This perfect parents origin and life you're all pining for were a non entity.

I don't think anyone is pinning for or even inferred there were ever a "perfect family" scenario. It just didn't have murder and prison as a motivation.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Except like I said the third gen Flash who was built on the tragedy of Barry Allen (and constant reminder of it) . That was great! ....Right!?

See post above.

And yes, it was pretty much great once Mike Baron left.

[Güicho]

Mentorship. Example. Heroic freaking sacrifice. Legacy. Not "tragedy".
.

I know it's convenient for you to write it off as not tragic.
He gave his life, If you are a Barry fan, of course it's tragic.

And Wally's legacy was built on that tragedy.
Not his happy bow-tie wearing origin.

Barry's life was full of tragedy.
One was moved into the past, exploiting an established time traveling villain. How he would deal with it becomes a part of his character.

I don't think anyone is pinning for or even inferred there were ever a "perfect family" scenario.

It seems they are.

It just didn't have murder and prison as a motivation.

That wasn't his motivation, ultimately surviving it , telling him not to change the past
Oh right "Mentorship. Example. Heroic freaking sacrifice. Legacy."
Oh but according to you = Not "tragedy".

And is the whole time traveler = time and events not linear lost on everyone?
If he's going back to "fix" it's because he remembers a different past.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I know it's convenient for you to write it off as not tragic.
He gave his life, If you are a Barry fan, of course it's tragic.

And Wally's legacy was built on that tragedy.

Dude, use semantics as much as you like, but you know that there is a very, very clear difference between Barry's death and the dead mom retcon. You also know that Barry's death was never really used as a tragic backdrop, quite the contrary.

Now, you seem to want to make a point like "Wally fans say THIS, but they don't care about THAT". Sorry but that is not a discussion I am, at all, interested in having. Specially considering the derailment it would cause in a thread devoted to discuss Barry's origin.

[Güicho]

Dude, use semantics as much as you like

You're the one who tried to define what was and wasn't tragic for some.
That was you, don't put it on me.

barry's death was never really used as a tragic backdrop.
.

.......lol!

a thread devoted to discuss Barry's origin.

Again, the whole non linear unfolding of the event seems lost on everyone.
His main villain is a time traveler!

Time travel is at the core of the character, beginning to end to beginning...

[BohemiaDrinker]

Again, the whole non linear unfolding of the event seems lost on everyone.
His main villain is a time traveler!

I'll just quote myself on the opening page of this thread, for the sake of simplicity.

The sad thing is: The Reverse Flash coming back and ruining the Flash's life before he even becomes the Flash is, in theory, a great origin. It just sucks for Barry. It may be the one good idea he had in the otherwise crapfest that was Flash:Rebirth and, yet, completely wrong for the character.

[BohemiaDrinker]

You're the one who tried to define what was and wasn't tragic for some.
That was you, don't put it on me.

For real dude, if you can't discern trauma from inspiration, or the most heroic sacrifice in DC's history to having a murdered mom and a framed dad, I'm not going to be the one to change your mind.

Yet, the fact that Wally took over for Barry after the latter died was never used as tragic backdrop, quite the contrary. You may be the most ardent Barry fan in the world and that will not change the content of the book.

But honestly, whatever.

[Güicho]

Maybe stop trying to define what's tragic for others.
For me this pain and sacrifice is tragic.



And to say the third gen Flash wasn't built on or never used it seems disingenuous, when it was constantly referenced. I mean he's wearing the costume.
Of course what he does with it is what maters.
As it did for Barry.

And yes he chose to continue the path, he did not chose the pain and solitude of it. Losing Barry was tragic.

[BohemiaDrinker]

And to say the third gen Flash wasn't built on or never used it seems disingenuous, when it was often referenced as inspiration.

It was. It was built on "my uncle was the best person ever and gave his life to save everybody and he was AWESOME and I'll dedicate my life to measure up to him". There was a constant reminiscence of Barry? Sure. About his death/suffering/whatever? Not really. His life is what mattered most. And if every time you opened a Wally book what you saw in your head was Barry screaming for help, honestly, that's on you, not on the book itself.

But I'm leaving this discussion; you seem really intent on debating things no one said in this thread, and also on proving a really specific reading you made of the Wally times that are neither relevant to the topic at hand nor represented on the run.

Sorry, but again, I have no interest in debating whatever beef you have with Wally fandom (if that's what it is), or in going around debating the differences between a hero offering his life and a regular person made Swiss cheese by a serial killer.

[Waterfall]

Zoom literally exists because he was bitter that Wally wasn’t motivated by a tragedy. I dunno why are we even arguing about this. Wally always mourned Barry’s loss but it didn’t motivate him into doing dumb things.

[Güicho]

It was. It was built on "my uncle was the best person ever and gave his life to save everybody and he was AWESOME..... There was a constant reminiscence of Barry? Sure. About his death/suffering/whatever?

Yeah "whatever" no tragedy there.
And the image wasn't about the mouth, but what Barry is saying, experiencing, how it affected Barry, not Wally, for those saying there was no tragedy.
And no that's not all I saw, yes he chose to keep running through it, that makes him a hero, but when it's referenced and built upon, I don't ignore the pain, solitude and sacrifice either, and pretend his death wasn't tragic.

But I'm leaving this discussion; you seem really intent on debating things no one said in this thread, and also on proving a really specific reading you made of the Wally times that are neither relevant to the topic at hand nor represented on the run.

Sorry, but again, I have no interest in debating whatever beef you have with Wally fandom (if that's what it is), or in going around debating the differences between a hero offering his life and a regular person made Swiss cheese by a serial killer.

That you tell me his death isn't tragic speaks to that.
The "Flash not about tragedy" mantra and that it became a thread title, speaks to a division in the fandom and POV which builds off it, yet simultaneously denies it, I see a contradiction there which I am addressing, it's relevant because it came about as a response to the return of Barry, and retcon of his origin., the topic of this thread:
Where tragedy should or should't exist in the Flash. In the past, present, only the future?
Does the nature of his character setup and origin allow for tragedy , and where.
That is absolutely relevant, and on topic, and what I was talking about.

The retcon just brings them all together, the origin, the Flash as detective (forensics) a time travel villain, and actually bothers to develop and add the parents into the drama, what better mystery for a detective speedster, than one that changed the past?

This whole "Flash was never about tragedy" mantra is complete BS, lest we forget Zoom vibrated his hand into Iris' head, the whole extended final arc of the Flash was absolutely about tragedy, and the third gen Flash was built on the tragedy of Barry Allen.
We were constantly reminded of it.

Flash doesn't exist in perfect amber: Thawne killing Iris, on trial for his murder, the pain and solitude experienced through his crisis sacrifice, are tragic part of the character too.
The linear nature of the tragedies which were a part of Barry's life, plus the fact that he has a none-linear abiding time traveling murdering villain, moves tragedy which was already a part of his life, forward into his past.
It works and builds off what was there.

You are focusing on the corpse "made Swiss cheese" and ignore Barry's reaction to it, which is what maters and why I draw parallels to the tragedies, how they effect Barry.
You ignore that and instead it's you who plays semantics with the word so you can argue one was a tragedy the other isn't.

[Buried Alien]

The final few years of Barry's (first) life were pretty tragic.

First, he loses Iris in a shocking and unexpected way when Reverse Flash murders her.

Not very long afterwards, Barry is attempting to rebuild his life with Fiona Webb, only to inadvertently kill Reverse Flash and stand trial for murder, his reputation tarnished. He suffers such indignities as nearly getting kicked out of the Justice League and getting his face smashed in by Big Sir.

Then, through a convoluted series of events, Iris is revived and helps acquit him of murder, but they hardly have time to savor the victory before the Crisis hits and Barry loses his life.

It was a dark few years for Barry before the end of the first run.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Güicho]

The final few years of Barry's (first) life were pretty tragic.

First, he loses Iris in a shocking and unexpected way when Reverse Flash murders her.

A building dynamic which was already rooted in past stories. This didn't come out of nowhere.



And an analogues time-traveling villain from the future threatening to change and murder people in the past was in his first issue parallel to his origin, it's where it's built from. Johns again brought it full circle actually exploring it to it's fullest.

Taking this villain into his past, reads truer than this meaningless reimagining and clinging to this Flash frozen in amber as nothing but joy, pining for his non-entity parents , not one of you can point to or reference an actual character scene where you see how they actually impacted or helped define him.
Exept to meaninglessly say they just did by existing, you can't show or describe how, except to invent. You are doing as much retconing as Johns' (and VanSciver who is actually the guy who pushed for, and helped craft the new story, I belive)

[Jim Kelly]

Ouch! Hurts to see 233 looking so abused.

Hey, there’s no doubt that pre-COIE Barry and Wally had some bad experiences after they got their powers. That’s par for the course with any super-hero. The point was that, in contrast to the born from tragedy trope, both Allen and West were happy campers unchanged in character by the accidents that powered them in their original incarnations.

Events like MILLENNIUM messed up Wally’s happy childhood and imposed a traumatic one on him. And REBIRTH/FLASHPOINT did the same for Barry.

People talk about Wally’s FLASH run like that was his first time as Flash—ignoring all his years as (Kid) Flash from 1960 to 1986. Wally was a participant in all those fun adventures. That’s his legacy as much as Barry’s and Jay’s.