Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Lhynn]

I totally agree that his Teen Titans was an unmitigated disaster but editorial mandates where a huge problem with that book. I remember hearing that an editor flat out rewrote the part in one issue and had Tim say "I am now Tim Drake" when Lobdell had written "I am Tim Drake" and then there's the fact that whenever that book started to go somewhere it was pulled into some lame ass crossover. It never had a clear direction and never went anywhere because editorial interfered to heavily in it. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they simply rewrote parts of it to suit their purposes after he'd turned a completed script in. Editorial interference was rampant at the time from what I understand from writers who left DC.

Not buying it. Lodbell actually went to comic vine to defend his TT work, and especially his Tim Drake treatment.
feels more more like he wanted to write a new character and editorial didnt care.

[JasonTodd428]

Not buying it. Lodbell actually went to comic vine to defend his TT work, and especially his Tim Drake treatment.
feels more more like he wanted to write a new character and editorial didnt care.

*shrug* That's what I had heard at one point. Not saying its necessarily true. What I do believe to be true, however, is that there were far to many editorially mandated crossovers involved with that book and that one of the reasons it never really got anywhere was because of that. (Honestly, the Teen Titans franchise has been a complete mess for a good long while anyway so it was pretty much a mess when Lobdell came into it and editorial messed it up more by throwing out Titans history. That was not something that can be laid at Lobdell's feet in any way, shape or form) I also do believe it to be true that editorial across the board at the time was pretty heavy handed with directions they wanted things to go in as well as how to get there. Various writers have commented on that more than enough IMHO to make it highly likely that it was true.

As a side note, this thread now has 200 pages.

[Lhynn]

well, i think it was completely unnecesary to redo every single titan. I went back and reread the last issues of pre flashpoint titans and fount it surprisingly not crap, much better than i remember. Thats either due to lowered standards or lowered standards i guess.

Why would you make superboy a murdering psycho? why would you push SJW LGBTQ stuff, why would you make your shy wondergirl into some jaded art thief. I really want to know who got the bright idea to redo an entire succesful generation.

[JasonTodd428]

well, i think it was completely unnecesary to redo every single titan. I went back and reread the last issues of pre flashpoint titans and fount it surprisingly not crap, much better than i remember. Thats either due to lowered standards or lowered standards i guess.

Why would you make superboy a murdering psycho? why would you push SJW LGBTQ stuff, why would you make your shy wondergirl into some jaded art thief. I really want to know who got the bright idea to redo an entire succesful generation.

To go along with that I feel it was completely unnecessary to throw out the history of the Titans as well as the most of the rest of the DCU history. If they were going to stick with basically the same team as before then they should have left all the history in place instead of the nonsense they pulled. They wanted something new though and I sort of feel like they should have maybe gone with completely new characters that they could build from the ground up to achieve that 'newness' they were so desirous of at the time instead of saddling these particular characters with a bunch of changes. The single bright spot to me in all the changing they did was Bunker. I liked his character a lot and it made me want to see other new characters on the team instead of the same old ones they've used for years.

[Lhynn]

Bunker was a special case, it was a good character but also a bad character. It had moments of great characterization and others of blatant tokenism.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Not buying it. Lodbell actually went to comic vine to defend his TT work, and especially his Tim Drake treatment.
feels more more like he wanted to write a new character and editorial didnt care.

You have a link? Because I looked around ComicVine and Lobdell stopped being active much earlier than issue 0 hit the stands.

And he did in fact admit on an interview that editorial changedthe dialogue he wrote for that issue about Tim.

Oh, and speaking as someone who was born and raised on Mexico, Bunker is one of the best mexican characters in the medium. At least under Lobdell, Pfeifer's take on Miguel was horrible.

Didn't that happen around the same time that MechaBat!Gordon started showing up heavily in other books as well? I seem to remember that it did.

Yes, the whole thing was an editorial mandate to prop up Gordon.

[Aioros22]

Tynion writes comics as he were writing fanfiction. Things happen because they are cool regardless if they fit previous characterizations or actually move the plot forward. However, he has turned into a crowd pleaser, writing the kind of stuff the audience want even if is a pretty inferior retread of ideas explored by far better writers than him before.

Lobdell on the other hand is a professional writer in all the meaning of the word, he carefully weaves his stories in way they can be easily incorporated if other creators want and he does a pretty extensive research about the characters he writes. However, he's ultimately at the whims of editorial so it doesn't always show. Editorial is in fact the bane of Lobdell, since he isn't a high profile writer he has to fold at the editor's requests and that more often than not translates into incomplete arcs and dropped plot points.

I prefer Loedbell over Tynion. On his best days, one is miles better than the other, but Loedbell is nout without his flaws. I have no particular take on how much editorial hindered his work, so I`ll take everyone`s word for good measure. That being said TMNT/Batman is a different animal. It`s a format where you are supposed to be a crowd pleaser and a bit of a fanfic writer. Continuity is handled superficially over character interactions and in that regard the book was great.

Except Shredder and IronBatman having a prolonged fight, that was crap. Shredder eats bats for breakfest.

[JasonTodd428]

And he did in fact admit on an interview that editorial changedthe dialogue he wrote for that issue about Tim.

I remember seeing that somewhere as well but for the life of me I can't remember what interview it was. I also recall he was surprised that the line had been changed which made me think at the time that he wasn't even aware that a change had been made.

Oh, and speaking as someone who was born and raised on Mexico, Bunker is one of the best mexican characters in the medium. At least under Lobdell, Pfeifer's take on Miguel was horrible.

I agree that Pfiefer's take on Miguel was awful. I much preferred Lobdell's.

Yes, the whole thing was an editorial mandate to prop up Gordon.

Thought as much. Thanks.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I prefer Loedbell over Tynion. On his best days, one is miles better than the other, but Loedbell is nout without his flaws. I have no particular take on how much editorial hindered his work, so I`ll take everyone`s word for good measure. That being said TMNT/Batman is a different animal. It`s a format where you are supposed to be a crowd pleaser and a bit of a fanfic writer. Continuity is handled superficially over character interactions and in that regard the book was great.

Except Shredder and IronBatman having a prolonged fight, that was crap. Shredder eats bats for breakfest.

Thing is, Fanfics are unanimously terrible when they blatantly ignore the canon of the series they're using as basis. The few legitimately good fanfics out there is because their authors bothered to do their research and worked hard to fit their ideas into the series' canon, not the other way. And that is something that Tynion has missed through his whole career.

Take a look at Johns, the man basically made his fanfiction core part of the DCU but unlike Tynion his work was well received because he naturally added his ideas to the universe.

That said, TMNT/Batman wasn't a massive wreck but was ultimately banal and meaningless. A crossover that big deserved to be much, much more.

[The Whovian]

I prefer Loedbell over Tynion.

I think they've both been great. Lobdell has been amazing on RHATO and Tynion has been superb on 'Tec. I just hope DC doesn't mess with anything and just lets these two keep going because they're the two best books right now, IMO.

[Aioros22]

Thing is, Fanfics are unanimously terrible when they blatantly ignore the canon of the series they're using as basis. The few legitimately good fanfics out there is because their authors bothered to do their research and worked hard to fit their ideas into the series' canon, not the other way. And that is something that Tynion has missed through his whole career.

Take a look at Johns, the man basically made his fanfiction core part of the DCU but unlike Tynion his work was well received because he naturally added his ideas to the universe.

That said, TMNT/Batman wasn't a massive wreck but was ultimately banal and meaningless. A crossover that big deserved to be much, much more.

I`m laughhing because i mostly agree about Johns, but he`s got exceptions. His Booster Gold, Aquaman and some Green lanterna stuff are quality. The crossovers is where it goes nuts. Any crossover could always be a bit more, but TMNT/Batman is good in everything it counts. Interactions, cool exposition, a nicely written Batman (better than in Detective actually), artwork and of course, cameos and fights, the two main things.

Is it really that big? I guess it is, I`m much more hyped by the current Thundercats/Masters of the Universe myself.

[Aioros22]

I think they've both been great. Lobdell has been amazing on RHATO and Tynion has been superb on 'Tec. I just hope DC doesn't mess with anything and just lets these two keep going because they're the two best books right now, IMO.

Oh, it isn`t a hard knock on Tynion from me. I just prefer one style over the other.

[Aahz]

Thing is, Fanfics are unanimously terrible when they blatantly ignore the canon of the series they're using as basis. The few legitimately good fanfics out there is because their authors bothered to do their research and worked hard to fit their ideas into the series' canon, not the other way. And that is something that Tynion has missed through his whole career.

I think there are also some good ones, where writer made his own canon (after doing research).

But the portrait of some charcters in the current comics really reminds me sometimes more on their fanfic version, than on the classic comic versions, as well as the way they treat continuity nowadays.

[Aahz]

Editorial's fault. Lobdell's original plan for Underbelly was entirely unrelated to Gotham and it was one issue longer. He had to cut short the story and tie him to Gotham to have Gordon show up.

The whole first half of RH/A was still pretty weak, at least when it comes to villains and the crime fighting part of the plot. And a good series needs both, good character work and good story lines.

[Lhynn]

Cannae believe we are arguing over lodbell and tynnion. Tynnion has been harmless to the characters he has written.
Sure, he wrote jason as a screw up, but so did Lodbell, heck JasonTodd428 freaking avatar is clearly showing how he failed to measure up at first.

Lodbell alone and by himself ruined the most prominent characters of an entire generation of superheroes. He singlehandedly destroyed them so badly, that no matter what creative teams have picked up his nuclear waste, have been unable to produce anything remotely interesting or deserving of more of a passing "meh". It was so bad that they had to either get killed or get disappeared and are in limbo waiting for someone to actually bother fixing them.
He may have a real knack to write Jason, because both he loves the character and sees a lot of himself in him, but that doesnt make him a good writer.
Tynion at the very least sort of held the title and his blunders were mostly in character. And right now hes juggling members of the entire batfam in and out and hes keeping their voice relatively faithful. Hes showing that both he has learned and that he has range and interesting ideas.