Taking the blame off Donner.

[CharlesInCharge]

DC/Warner Brothers apparently see fit to blame Donner's Superman movie, and it's impact on the character, as being the cause of his inability to move forward or stay relevant.


However, it isn't Donner's fault, for instance, that:


Jon Peters (and yes, I hold him as the one most responsible) stalled the development of the movie franchise in the nineties.



Superman Returns, when it was eventually released, was an overblown homage to the original movie, with barely a trace of it's own originality.



After Returns, the franchise stalled again for another seven years, While Warner ran around like headless chickens wondering what to do with it and let Marvel leave them in the dust.



DC began basing the Comics on Donner's version, post Infinite Crisis. Sure, he was co-writer with Johns during the Last Son arc, but it was DC themselves who brought him on board and asked him to base it on his version of the movie. I, personally speaking, am a huge fan of that story arc, but if DC
didn't want to continue homageing Donner, then they shouldn't have published it, full stop.



Anyway, rant over. Personally, I think Superman: the Movie is the best cinematic incarnation of the character so far, but I understand that it's just an adaptation and that future movies need to move forward with their own identity and vision. Sorry if I sound like I'm complaining, but It's been a difficult day. Needed to let off some steam.

[Prime]

Directly he is not to blame. DC is to blame for everything though.

[paurru]

Those Salkands ruined the Superman II movie back then and they made Superman III into a pratfall type movie. Theyre the ones to blame technicaly

[LordTrump]

Those Salkands ruined the Superman II movie back then and they made Superman III into a pratfall type movie. Theyre the ones to blame technicaly

Pratfall?

And where is this blaming of Donner?

[Sacred Knight]

Donner's not to blame for anything. He was tasked with making a film and in 1978 he delivered a fantastic one (would have been two had he not been stupidly let go). The fault lies with some of the creators of today who are unable to do anything with the character without ripping off his film, which in many ways is dated now. And saying that is not supposed to be an insult, its only natural as its almost 40 years old for gods sake.

[Flash Gordon]

Richard Donner made a great flick in 1978. Iconic.

The only problem at all is that it was so iconic that a lot of the creators in comics can't see past it. That isn't a fault on the film, that is great praise actually. It's just not always great for the character of Superman, who has had a long life before and after 1978.

[Atomic Man]

Donner saved the character and his comics at a time when both were failing. His commitment to being faithful to all that makes Superman iconic renewed the character's appeal for that generation and those that followed. No matter what the cynical, hipster asshats who want everything to be like Batman and Watchmen would have you believe, the general audience knows Superman from those movies and doesn't give a crap about "panties" or "boy scout" arguments. They see Superman, they will tell you what he stands for and that he's the hero whose movies can be watched by their kids as well as themselves. Meanwhile, Snyder, Goiter, and WB refuse to give that Superman his due in cinema.

Here's the most eloquent and powerful exploration of what Superman is, how he should be portrayed, and how WB has failed the character with the Snyderverse shit.

Superman And The Damage Done

[phantom1592]

LOL

So apparently someone is blaming Donner for making a Superman that can't be topped? That's pretty high praise. Returns was actually a good movie WHILE it was homaging Donner's version... it was the 'unique vision' and direction that they took 'home-wrecker/deadbeat dad' superman that killed the movie. The clark bits and the plane rescue and him saving the city... were fantastic and fans loved it. It was just that B-plot and nothing big to punch to that people were up in arms about.

Everyone I've seen complain about the new Snyder-verse want it to be MORE like Donner's... which despite a few personal touches on the scenery around him... was essentially the Comic book superman. That was Superman stepping directly off the page and flying across theaters. No fancy armor... no redesigned costumes... no artistic touches... Superman was SUPERMAN. The personal touches was saved for the things like crystal Ice fortress and spikey ships...

If DC did MORE of that, their movies MAY be better received.

[manofsteel1979]

I don't blame Donner. Who would? He made a great film that is enjoyable still today

Whom I blame is the fans and creators that forget that Superman existed before 1978 and insist that Supes in all media completely copy every facet of the 1978 film and it's sequel. They demand and expect Supes be portrayed EXACTLY like Chris Reeve's version with no conciderations of other live action interpretations like George Reeves etc. They expect the Fortress, Jor-El, etc to copy the film. They think it is the blue print that should be followed going forward when they forget it was only meant to be an adaptation of preexisting material.

Not to say I don't mind some nods to the film. I think the crystal Fortress and the concept of crystal technology from Krypton is a great sci Fi concept , and the idea of Supes first meet cute with Lois being tied to a helicopter /plane accident has been used in many other versions now. However, the preFlashpoint Donnerization of Supes origin by Johns was misguided and is frankly wrong. It is one of my concerns going forward. I'm okay with homages and winks to it, but say, changing Jor-El to that of a famous deceased actor with a beard and insisting your artist draw 10 year old Clark to creepily have another deceased actor's face and insist Clark always be portrayed as a clumsy oaf all because of a 40 year old movie is a little too much.

But again, that is not Donner's fault. It's those who grew up in it's wake who want to recapture their childhoods and set it all in Amber and resist anything that moves on from that is the issue. It would be like insisting that comic book Batman and Batman in all media copy the 89 film , complete with the black rubber suit, jack Nicolson Joker alikeness, Danny Elfman theme and drawing Bruce Wayne to look like Michael Keaton. That movie was even more of a phenomenon than Donner's Superman was, but do we see that copied or demands from voices in fandom that demand to see that recycled into Batman at every turn? No. So why should we expect Supes to follow the blue print of an old movie?

Let the movies be movies, and the comics be comics. There is room beyond one dogmatic view.

[CharlesInCharge]

Just to clarify, I myself am not blaming Donner for anything, in case people thought I was. Although I was probably out of place in saying Warner/ DC have that attitude, without any real proof, I get the feeling that that is the case. I mean check out Snyder's comments here:

http://variety.com/2014/film/news/za...an-1201159883/

Basically, he seems to hold the position that the popularity of the original movie is the reason why people didn't love his movie, unaware of his own mistakes.

For the record, however, I like Man of Steel, even if I don't think it's perfect, and thought it was a good enough foundation for the DCEU. For me, the real problems began with BvS.

[Agent Z]

Just to clarify, I myself am not blaming Donner for anything, in case people thought I was. Although I was probably out of place in saying Warner/ DC have that attitude, without any real proof, I get the feeling that that is the case. I mean check out Snyder's comments here:

http://variety.com/2014/film/news/za...an-1201159883/

Basically, he seems to hold the position that the popularity of the original movie is the reason why people didn't love his movie, unaware of his own mistakes.

For the record, however, I like Man of Steel, even if I don't think it's perfect, and thought it was a good enough foundation for the DCEU. For me, the real problems began with BvS.

Given how many reviews made known their preference for the Donner movies, I can't really blame him for coming to that conclusion.

[FishyZombie]

Given how many reviews made known their preference for the Donner movies, I can't really blame him for coming to that conclusion.

I imagine it's a lot easier to blame biased critics or the "tone" of the movie, rather than crappy writing and poor creative decisions.

[DCJdog]

Zach Snyder needs to just shut up and do a little bit of self criticism. Many people prefer the Donner film's because they were fun and filled with heroism.

Most of the modern superhero movies focus on fighting and seeing how much CGI crap that they can fit in. At the end of that long and tedious battle between battle between Zod and Superman in the MOS, I looked at my wife and said, "You ready to go?" It was ridiculous.

Donner made a great film that I really enjoyed in my childhood and many others did as well. Why in the world would you criticism him or its success? That's stupid.

Here's an idea - created a self-imposed limit on CGI and violence; focus on the characters, their interactions and developments; let Superman be a hero instead and have fun at being a hero. I am personally sick of the whole "ethics/morality is a gray area" belief thing. There really are heroes and heroic actions. There are universal good values and good things. Focus on those in a hero movie and have fun with it. How hard is that?

[Jokerz79]

Just to clarify, I myself am not blaming Donner for anything, in case people thought I was. Although I was probably out of place in saying Warner/ DC have that attitude, without any real proof, I get the feeling that that is the case. I mean check out Snyder's comments here:

http://variety.com/2014/film/news/za...an-1201159883/

Basically, he seems to hold the position that the popularity of the original movie is the reason why people didn't love his movie, unaware of his own mistakes.

For the record, however, I like Man of Steel, even if I don't think it's perfect, and thought it was a good enough foundation for the DCEU. For me, the real problems began with BvS.

I liked Man of Steel thought it was a well made film but as a Superman man movie I didn't love it, it just wasn't my Superman and no I had no issue with Superman killing Zod not taking the fights outside of populated areas I do though. Now BvS the Ultimate cut was an ok movie to me with some story problems. I hated JE as Lex and Batman killing bugged me for one reason but has killed in various incarnations he killed in Burton's film which I loved in 89 but he also killed the main villains and that's my issue with that if he kills he should have no Rogues gallery IMO. Now the Theatrical cut of BvS was a mess and I blame Warner Bros. For that not Snyder but Snyder needs to realize his own faults and mistakes and not look to Donner's Film which I love.

[DochaDocha]

If someone makes a gold standard, of course all things that follow will be measured against it. Like it or not, 1978's Superman is that measuring stick, and will remain so for a long time until someone makes a more popular movie.

In a semantics sense, you can blame Donner in that whenever a new Supes film comes out, you can't escape the comparisons. Of course, in a logical sense, blaming Donner is stupid because he has had very little creative control over the character since.

But as others might have alluded to, Superman is held by a different standard than other comic book superheroes, and I also tend to think there's a Protoss/Zerg/Terran like segmentation among the population of people who watch Superman movies. Every movie from here on out seems destined to polarize...