The FLASH TV SERIES

[Carabas]

Again, I get that the more you think about time travel plots the less they make sense and that you had to suspend significant disbelief in order to just go with the flow and enjoy the story. Regardless of that, however, this isn't even a problem with the time travel element but more of a plot hole involving the creation of the time remnant and how he ultimately became savitar. It doesn't make any sense.

I think it was also a cop-out.

If I had to do that story then Savitar would be actual future!Barry,not some copy.
Might even have been the original intent until somebody chickened out/the powers-that-be told them "Hell no."

[kingaliencracker]

I think it was also a cop-out.

If I had to do that story then Savitar would be actual future!Barry,not some copy.
Might even have been the original intent until somebody chickened out/the powers-that-be told them "Hell no."

My feeling is that the original intent was to copy Savitar from the comics, which is why we got the cult and Doctor Alchemy at the beginning of the season, only for that to be completely dropped after the Alchemy reveal. Someone probably felt that the Savitar from the comics wasn't dramatic enough, and decided to make it future Barry instead. Then somehow we got a compromise in that it's sort of future Barry but sort of a duplicate as well.

I'm actually fine with the time remnant being Savitar, to be honest. But it would have made much more sense as the previous poster suggested (that it was the time remnant from Barry's battle with Zoom). And Savitar as they ultimately depicted him makes sense provided he only existed in the closed time loop - he escapes the Speed Force, kills Iris, battles Barry for 4 years, and then Barry traps him in the speed force. Cycle, rinse, repeat. But then you throw in the idea that Barry created a time remnant to help him fight Savitar, only for that remnant to travel way back in time to create a cult and...then what exactly? How does that remnant wind up as Savitar trapped in the Speed Force?

As I said, I felt they had an initial idea with Savitar in mind and brought up the cult business to match the comics. When they decided to shift gears, they couldn't really reconcile the cult and the time remnant reveal, so instead they just glossed over it and created a massive plot hole.

[kingaliencracker]

Adding more credence to the theory that Savitar was envisioned much differently at the beginning of the season than he wound up being at the end is that he's clearly shown early on to be superior to Barry in every facet in terms of speed and power, but by the time he is revealed to be time remnant Barry, he's suddenly Barry's equal.

[Carabas]

I am not fine with time remnants as a concept, period.

I also have never read a comic with Savitar in it, so I wouldn't know.

[feenix219]

I think it was also a cop-out.

If I had to do that story then Savitar would be actual future!Barry,not some copy.
Might even have been the original intent until somebody chickened out/the powers-that-be told them "Hell no."

That definitely would have gotten rid of the paradox.

It almost fits one of my own thoughts, honestly.

I don't believe in predestination paradoxes and spontaneous time loops.

I've always felt that it just means we are so many iterations into the loop, that the original events have been lost and degraded.

Maybe Savitar WAS a completely different, more comics accurate representation, and at some point during the loop, the dark Barry that was created due to Iris' death (which could have been a time remnant, or could just be actual future barry gone dark) ended up defeating Savitar, gaining all that power, realizing that his own existence is at stake. Maybe he defeated the original Savitar, yet to save his own existence was forced to take Savitar's place in killing her. *Edit* Maybe that is who he stole the exoarmor from. Maybe it wasn't even Savitar the first time. Maybe it was another random baddie, and the time remnant, once created, took that villain's place in the narrative to preserve his own existence. Maybe originally his goal was to save her, until he realizes by saving her, he is untethering his own existence. Maybe he actually lives this loop over and over again, making him more and more insane, experiencing each iteration until the only thing he cares about is preserving his own existence, because its the only thing that is actually real anymore. Being trapped in your own personal groudhogs day loop of hell would eventually desensitize him, I suppose. The whole thing is rather convoluted.


I still think just using the time remnant from Season 2's finale would have been the genius way of handling it. I kept waiting for the twist, and they even reminded us of the S2 events, and then.... nope. Missed the boat completely. Would have solved all of this fanwank we have to do to make sense of it all.

[ZoomZolomonZoom]

That definitely would have gotten rid of the paradox.

It almost fits one of my own thoughts, honestly.

I don't believe in predestination paradoxes and spontaneous time loops.

I've always felt that it just means we are so many iterations into the loop, that the original events have been lost and degraded.

Maybe Savitar WAS a completely different, more comics accurate representation, and at some point during the loop, the dark Barry that was created due to Iris' death ended up defeating Savitar, gaining all that power, realizing that his own existence at stake. Maybe he defeated the original Savitar, yet to save his own existence was forced to take Savitar's place in killing her. Maybe it wasn't even Savitar the first time. Maybe it was another random baddie, and the time remnant, once created, took that villain's place in the narrative to preserve his own existence. Maybe originally his goal was to save her, until he realizes by saving her, he is untethering his own existence. Maybe he actually lives this loop over and over again, making him more and more insane, experiencing each iteration until the only thing he cares about is preserving his own existence, because its the only thing that is actually real anymore. Being trapped in your own personal groudhogs day loop of hell would eventually desensitize him, I suppose. The whole thing is rather convoluted.


I still think just using the time remnant from Season 2's finale would have been the genius way of handling it. I kept waiting for the twist, and they even reminded us of the S2 events, and then.... nope. Missed the boat completely. Would have solved all of this fanwank we have to do to make sense of it all.

Good points all around from you & Carabas. What irks me about The Flash is how they seem to be pick & choose how time travel works within their own narrative. On one hand they have Thawne going around changing history clearly proving the universe is chaotic and any time travel can change the original stream of events. This is all well & good but then they do a complete 180 and have Savitar be a bootstrap paradox, the complete opposite approach to what they were doing with Thawne! WTF Flash writers!?! Obviously they didn't value in-universe consistency when writing this Savitar plot line or else they would've just gone and had the Zoom Remnant be Savitar, or had Future Barry actually become him but not have it be a pre-destination paradox. More I think about there were a lot of ways to go about it. The writers actually choose in spite of the other options to write and present this contradictory mess as Savitar's origin story. :P

[feenix219]

As other good choices, if it had to be Barry, I was guessing (Flashpoint Barry) who had his perfect life with his parents ripped away, or (Pre Season 1) Barry who had already warned him not to create Flashpoint by waving him on initially. (I actually expected this to come full circle in the S3 premiere... one more missed opportunity this past season.)

Honestly, as far as wasted potential goes, S2 redeemed itself with the Jay Garrick twist, and made me NOT hate every little thing I had been despising about the season, but S3 just kind of went nowhere, and in a confusing way. It wasn't even a fun ride. It ends with Barry stuck in the speed force, which is far from original. The show is just running in circles lately.

The "monster of the week" episodes are still fun, of course, but the season long arcs haven't been great.

[Dr. Ellingham]

I gave up on this show in early season 2. This show fell off so hard. I've caught up recently, and I think the momentum they had in S1 was due to the Dr. Wells/Thawne mystery, and the slow burn of his time travel revenge/go home plan playing out.

There were drawbacks in S1 too - the teeny-bopperish swooning, emotional tantrums and cheesy moments every CW show has. But the momentum, the human characters (especially Joe and Eddie) grounded some heady stuff, including that neat time travel conundrum they cooked up.

But after that uneven-but-promising first season, it devolved quite a bit, dancing between superhero and soap opera cliches. It has good episodes periodically, but it now has the same problem the comics have: Too many superpowered characters.

[Jim Kelly]

Since Harrison Wells of Earth-2 has a daughter who became Jesse Quick, is it possible on another Earth that there's a Wells who became Johnny Quick? He might not even be named Wells, since as we saw with Jay Garrick he has a different name from his Earth-1 counterpart Henry Allen--so he could be Johnny Chambers.

Another question that arises from this is, if there is a Johnny Quick, is he good or evil? The comics have had both. But since we've been promised no more evil speedsters, I think he should be a good guy.

[Qwerty]

Since Harrison Wells of Earth-2 has a daughter who became Jesse Quick, is it possible on another Earth that there's a Wells who became Johnny Quick? He might not even be named Wells, since as we saw with Jay Garrick he has a different name from his Earth-1 counterpart Henry Allen--so he could be Johnny Chambers.

Another question that arises from this is, if there is a Johnny Quick, is he good or evil? The comics have had both. But since we've been promised no more evil speedsters, I think he should be a good guy.

Jay Garrick was lying about his name though. Unless you mean the real Jay Garrick who was Henry Allen

[feenix219]

Jay Garrick was lying about his name though. Unless you mean the real Jay Garrick who was Henry Allen

The real Jay Garrick was the genetic doppelganger of Henry Allen, but his name was Jay Garrick. Henry Allen's mother's maiden name was Garrick, and on Jay Garrick's Earth, she apparently never got married to an Allen. On yet another Earth (I call it Earth 90) Henry Allen was actually named Barry Allen instead.

[Jim Kelly]

On yet another Earth (I call it Earth 90) Henry Allen was actually named Barry Allen instead.

And correct me if my wrong, as it's been twenty-seven years since I watched the pilot, Barry's brother was named Jay--a policeman who died in the line of duty.

There could be all sorts of reasons why Wells might be Chambers on another Earth.

While I'm spinning yarns, I'd also like it if Barry's counterpart on another Earth was played by Grant Gustin's doppelganger John Mulaney.

[Qwerty]

Never really thought about the resemblance before.

[feenix219]

And correct me if my wrong, as it's been twenty-seven years since I watched the pilot, Barry's brother was named Jay--a policeman who died in the line of duty.

There could be all sorts of reasons why Wells might be Chambers on another Earth.

http://wpc.4d27.edgecastcdn.net/004D27/Editorial/GrantGustinGlamoholic/Grant+Gustin+Glamoholic+2.jpg[/img]

I always wanted them to do a take on the Malcolm Thawn/Cobalt Blue/switched at birth thing, to get a version of Eddie in the flash suit at least once. The fact that there has never been a blond live action Barry (or a red haired Wally outside of JLU) still pisses me off.

Yup, Barry (Shipp) had an older brother named Jay that was killed in the pilot. He was Barry's inspiration and idol in a lot of ways. I remember thinking they were at least going to use him as an homage to Garrick, but then he died. There was another old episode where Barry took in or helped out or saved a nephew of his, I recall, but he was too young, and they never named him Wally.

[Frontier]

Barry and Iris will get married this season.