Do you think that what Jean Grey did in X-Men Red #5 was ethical?

[blanchett]

2. She wanted people to understand the truth and simply using TK does nothing to achieve that goal. Showing them how mutants feel is showing them the truth. You may not like that option. You may say she forced the truth on them but those soldiers lost their right to object when they chose to engage in mass murder. What option are you suggesting shows them the truth? As her goal wasn't merely to stop them but to educate them regarding the truth.

Imagine it's you and it was your mind and a godlike being decided to connect the most intimate and private part of you, your mind to an ideological enemy without your consnet.

It's not that Jean's intentions weren't correct. It's that she didn't actually have the right to do what she did and she didn't need too either. She isn't god anymore.

[remydat]

I’m not disregarding your point of view, I think there’s validity to it certainly, but can you truly not see the tiniest amount of validity to my train of thought? I’ve been consistent that I’m not categorizing Jean’s action as absolutely immoral (that’s my point of view, i can only speak for myself) but that it presents a problem that deserves a deeper examination than we got. That’s especially true for me when I see that it was Jean who did it, someone I’ve seen as, if not the most moral figure the X-Men have, at least among the most moral. She didn’t blatantly override their individual wills, but the method she chose to communicate with opens up implications that I can’t ignore. Now, I agree a little with your first point here that the soldiers forfeited certain rights when they engaged the way that they did, but Jean being within her rights to even kill them in defense of the innocents is a larger issue. That gets into Westphalian and post-Westphalian philosophy doesn’t it? Jean’s team was intervening in a foreign nations affairs, and if she still plans on moving forward with her idea of a mutant nation, that’s gonna have serious ramifications. Or it should anyways.

As far as showing them the truth, Jean could have met them at their level and used speech after stopping their action. Even if they are now enlightened, it’s knowledge they didn’t earn and that’s gonna have negative ramifications, not to mention some are bound to have their fear of mutants exacerbated.

I think we can have useful dialogue here even if we disagree, I hope you can see that I’m not trying to attack Jean herself or even Taylor for that matter.

Edit: I didn’t mean to imply that you think I’m disregarding your point of view, I constructed that first sentence a little poorly.

It is certainly an issue up for debate and in many other scenarios it is something that I would consider amoral or unethical. Just like in most cases I think killing is amoral or unethical. However, what Taylor presented is a specific scenario where what Jean did is moral and ethical. Doesn't mean we can't feel a bit uneasy about it. Doesn't mean in other situations it couldn't be considered unethical or amoral but in the context of the specific circumstances Taylor presented, Jean acted morally and ethically IMO. There is certainly a slope present but currently she hasn't reached the apex of that slope and thus is in no danger of slipping down it.

As for Jean intervening in a foreign nation's affairs, she was aligned with Namor ie the head of another nation state in that regard. We don't how much they communicated before Jean and later Namor arrived but Namor considers the shore his domain as he made clear and he offered the mutants asylum. We already saw Namor back Jean's speech to the UN so it remains a murky legal issue as those Polish mutants fall under Polish rule as citizens of Poland but Namor and Jean have also claimed they fail within the realm of Atlantis and this still vague mutant nation. So it is an unsettled issue regarding Namor and Jean's rights to intervene when mutants are threatened.

Finally, speech is a poor form of communication as it is easily misunderstood as this thread proves. I would agree thought that I would have started with speech save for the fact that any misunderstanding in this context would end in death. The fact is when mass murder is imminent, you don't have time to tip toe around things and hope that you can articulate via speech all the hopes, fears, and dreams of a group of people about to be eradicated. So again, in this specific context, what Jean did was the most effective and efficient mechanism to expose those soldiers to the truth. Put another way, there way be times when a letter or email is appropriate but when time is of the essence and you can't risk any delay or confusion, it is better to discuss in person or over the phone. So we must bear in mind that time was of the essence here and any miscommunication would result in death.

[remydat]

Imagine it's you and it was your mind and a godlike being decided to connect the most intimate and private part of you, your mind to an ideological enemy without your consnet.

It's not that Jean's intentions weren't correct. It's that she didn't actually have the right to do what she did and she didn't need too either. She isn't god anymore.

If it saves my life then sorry I don't really care. However, it is up to the mutants to decide how much they care about it not you and me. And since those mutants are fictional, it is up to Taylor and he made it obvious that they don't really care. Whether someone feels violated or not is up to them not you or me. If you were the writer you could write them feeling violated. If I were the writer, I could write them not feeling violated. Both are equally valid but the issue here is Taylor got to decide not you or me and he made his decision.

Jean had the power to save those people and she did so. You are right she isn't God so in the heat of the moment, I am not going to judge her based on the most perfect solution that you or I can come up with in hindsight. Human beings are human. We don't always pick the most optimal option when we have split seconds to chose. Further what option we pick is dependent upon our goals. If her sole focus was simply to stop genocide then sure she could have done something else but I don't think here sole goal was to stop mass murder. I think she had two goals.

1. To stop the mass murder.
2. To combat the hate being spread with the truth.

As my other post highlights the most efficient and effective way to achieve 2 given the time constraints and the risk of 1 is the option she chose. You may disagree with Jean having 2 as a goal but in the end she was in the position to save those people not you and so she did so in order to achieve her two primary goals. I am perfectly fine if someone has 1 as goal and I am perfectly fine if someone has 1 and 2 as a goal. However, in the end, it was Jean in position to save them and she acted in accordance with her goals not someone else's which is all that she can do.

[Devaishwarya]

Remydat, you should realise that after 14 pages of this...whatever this is...you are basically just typing into thin air. It's one thing to want to openly discuss a point but...arguing with a brick wall does not enlighten the wall and you end up looking like a lunatic.

[Hizashi]

It is certainly an issue up for debate and in many other scenarios it is something that I would consider amoral or unethical. Just like in most cases I think killing is amoral or unethical. However, what Taylor presented is a specific scenario where what Jean did is moral and ethical. Doesn't mean we can't feel a bit uneasy about it. Doesn't mean in other situations it couldn't be considered unethical or amoral but in the context of the specific circumstances Taylor presented, Jean acted morally and ethically IMO. There is certainly a slope present but currently she hasn't reached the apex of that slope and thus is in no danger of slipping down it.

As for Jean intervening in a foreign nation's affairs, she was aligned with Namor ie the head of another nation state in that regard. We don't how much they communicated before Jean and later Namor arrived but Namor considers the shore his domain as he made clear and he offered the mutants asylum. We already saw Namor back Jean's speech to the UN so it remains a murky legal issue as those Polish mutants fall under Polish rule as citizens of Poland but Namor and Jean have also claimed they fail within the realm of Atlantis and this still vague mutant nation. So it is an unsettled issue regarding Namor and Jean's rights to intervene when mutants are threatened.

Finally, speech is a poor form of communication as it is easily misunderstood as this thread proves. I would agree thought that I would have started with speech save for the fact that any misunderstanding in this context would end in death. The fact is when mass murder is imminent, you don't have time to tip toe around things and hope that you can articulate via speech all the hopes, fears, and dreams of a group of people about to be eradicated. So again, in this specific context, what Jean did was the most effective and efficient mechanism to expose those soldiers to the truth. Put another way, there way be times when a letter or email is appropriate but when time is of the essence and you can't risk any delay or confusion, it is better to discuss in person or over the phone. So we must bear in mind that time was of the essence here and any miscommunication would result in death.

You make some good points here; I agree that the context matters, Jean saved lives, but I don't think Taylor made a strong enough case that Jean behaved completely ethically. I think that a good piece of evidence for that was that Taylor had Kurt ask the obvious question so Jean explained the mechanics of what she did. That shows that Taylor is aware of the implications that accompany what Jean did and, for me, her explanation doesn't completely absolve the action. I'm not arguing, and I don't believe I've made the argument, that Jean has fallen down the slippery slope, but Jean shouldn't be on it in the first place. The point was raised, so if it's dropped then it'll be a plain disappointment, but there's an even worse possibility to me - Jean's use of telepathy may continue to be framed in the story as ethical, even if she pushes it a little further. As I said in my original statements on this topic, I have a larger problem with how telepathy is utilized in the MU as a whole and that Jean's action raised that problem to me again. So here's one small example of what I mean: whenever a telepath says they're sorry they read someone's mind but "they were thinking too loudly", I just want to roll my eyes. I could understand a new telepath with no experience struggling with this, but when a trained X-Man says this, it just feels contrived and morally dubious.

Your points about Jean being allied with Namor are solid, I see that it's still a little too vague to determine the potential fallout, but I'll maintain that killing would've been too far in this case. It could've been taken as an action of war, even with Namor's vague trade threat. As for her use of telepathy? You say that speech is a poor form of communication, that a mistake would've led to death, but that's not true. Jean had a trained team behind her, and significantly more force than needed to quickly and decisively stop the soldiers from attacking so she could speak to them uninterrupted. Storm's show of force should've been enough to stun the soldiers so that they might listen; at this point, I'm speculating on alternatives, but what I'm trying to say is that Jean had options. What she did certainly was the quickest way out, but like I said earlier, it puts her on a slope she shouldn't have been on.

A little more speculation here: if Nova is as devious as she's always been, I can see her using those soldiers against Jean. Suppose they quit the military and advocate for mutants rights, yeah? Well, all Nova has to do is expose that Jean used telepathy (somehow, it should be within her power) and then the screws get put on even harder to mutantkind. I think that would be interesting, but Nova is just as likely to use Jean's mere presence there to raise hatred against mutants. Where do you think they'll take it? Do you think the point will be raised again?

One final thing: consent is absolutely important when it comes to telepathy, it certainly matters to the superhero community and even to people on Jean's team. Telepaths should be aware of the need to maintain limits on the use of their ability at all times.

[Del torro]

Remydat, you should realise that after 14 pages of this...whatever this is...you are basically just typing into thin air. It's one thing to want to openly discuss a point but...arguing with a brick wall does not enlighten the wall and you end up looking like a lunatic.

Nah, what Jean did was completely unethical and unapprovable. Once we unanimously agree on that here, our next move will be to close down her appreciation thread, ban all Jean avatars and boycott every comicbook she appears or is mentioned on, until marvel undoes this travesty and character assassination.
Honestly, I'm disgusted and disappointed. A whole Jean grey, using telepathy in a non threatening manner that allows people to still use their free will? The hypocrite is becoming Cassandra Nova!!!
Yet they want us to root for her. Utterly Unacceptable.
The atmosphere in this thread has become toxic, I'll be in the appreciation thread of the X-mens Resident Ethics Teacher, Madame Frost.

You guys should chill.

[9th.]

I admire and appreciate your honesty

It most definitely was an assault, but it was also a non-violent solution. It's one thing I Love about Emma. She's honest about how she uses her powers and doesn't feel ashamed for having them or using them.

I think inherently anytime a telepath uses their powers it can be classified as a violation. How many times have we seen any of the telepaths say "I dont want/mean to pry" knowing full well they've already peaked inside someone's thoughts without asking.....at the same time Emma has described telepathy as involuntary. People's thoughts come TO them and they work to build a way to keep them out.



Morrison's New Xmen Jean forces Emma to live through her memories (which was a violation)

Thanks. can't wait to start New Xmen after I finish Uncanny

[remydat]

You make some good points here; I agree that the context matters, Jean saved lives, but I don't think Taylor made a strong enough case that Jean behaved completely ethically. I think that a good piece of evidence for that was that Taylor had Kurt ask the obvious question so Jean explained the mechanics of what she did. That shows that Taylor is aware of the implications that accompany what Jean did and, for me, her explanation doesn't completely absolve the action. I'm not arguing, and I don't believe I've made the argument, that Jean has fallen down the slippery slope, but Jean shouldn't be on it in the first place. The point was raised, so if it's dropped then it'll be a plain disappointment, but there's an even worse possibility to me - Jean's use of telepathy may continue to be framed in the story as ethical, even if she pushes it a little further. As I said in my original statements on this topic, I have a larger problem with how telepathy is utilized in the MU as a whole and that Jean's action raised that problem to me again. So here's one small example of what I mean: whenever a telepath says they're sorry they read someone's mind but "they were thinking too loudly", I just want to roll my eyes. I could understand a new telepath with no experience struggling with this, but when a trained X-Man says this, it just feels contrived and morally dubious.

Your points about Jean being allied with Namor are solid, I see that it's still a little too vague to determine the potential fallout, but I'll maintain that killing would've been too far in this case. It could've been taken as an action of war, even with Namor's vague trade threat. As for her use of telepathy? You say that speech is a poor form of communication, that a mistake would've led to death, but that's not true. Jean had a trained team behind her, and significantly more force than needed to quickly and decisively stop the soldiers from attacking so she could speak to them uninterrupted. Storm's show of force should've been enough to stun the soldiers so that they might listen; at this point, I'm speculating on alternatives, but what I'm trying to say is that Jean had options. What she did certainly was the quickest way out, but like I said earlier, it puts her on a slope she shouldn't have been on.

A little more speculation here: if Nova is as devious as she's always been, I can see her using those soldiers against Jean. Suppose they quit the military and advocate for mutants rights, yeah? Well, all Nova has to do is expose that Jean used telepathy (somehow, it should be within her power) and then the screws get put on even harder to mutantkind. I think that would be interesting, but Nova is just as likely to use Jean's mere presence there to raise hatred against mutants. Where do you think they'll take it? Do you think the point will be raised again?

One final thing: consent is absolutely important when it comes to telepathy, it certainly matters to the superhero community and even to people on Jean's team. Telepaths should be aware of the need to maintain limits on the use of their ability at all times.

Taylor had Kurt raise the issue because he understand some people would question it. However, he obviously then had Jean respond so that he could explain why what she did was ethical. Kurt asked if she changed something in their minds. Jean explicitly said she did not and all she did was show them the other side. "And in that moment, instead of monsters, each soldier experienced another person standing in front of them with hopes and faults and dreams and fears. The soldiers saw the reality of their government's bigoted narrative. And MOST of them CHOSE to do the right thing." It is clear from the above that whatever Jean did, the soldiers still had a choice because all of them didn't chose the same thing. Most of them did which by definition means some of them did not. Jean should certainly being on the slope. The world is too complicated to hold to the illusion that you will always be able to stay off the slope. The difference between a good person and a bad person is not that they don't ever get on the slope, it is that a good person more often than not stops before slipping off the other side of said slope. If writers only wrote characters that never approached the slope, not only would it be boring but it simply would not be a reflection or reality.

Killing is never too far to prevent murder. Nor is an act of war to prevent genocide unethical. If that were the case, the UN would never have intervened to prevent genocide in various parts of the world. Further, your notion that she has a seasoned team while correct is again falling prey to the idea above that humans are robots. It doesn't matter how skilled and how well trained her team is, life is full of variables. Gambit knows this more than anyone because despite his skill and training, he still saw a mutant die because of a single random act of violence. By all rights he should have been able to prevent it except he didn't and someone is now dead. You argument is the kind of argument that only makes sense when you know the threat is fictional. In real life, if you were on that beach facing an army with tanks, you want Jean to end the threat ASAP! No one in real life has the luxury to bypass a quick and non-lethal solution to try and talk when bullets are flying. That is fantasy.

And sure Nova most certainly can use this against Jean. However, you cross that bridge when you get there. Again, in real life, you don't have time to plan what some evil genius may do. You end the threat before something goes wrong. Period. Everything else again is just something you can argue from the comfort of your keyboard because there is no real danger. Finally, consent is most certainly important. Except of course when the person that failed to give consent is about to brutally murder women and children. There is no way around it. It is unrealistic to expect any human being telepath or not to be worried about maintain limits AT ALL TIMES when genocide is on the table. There are no absolutes in this world. There is no scenario where anything holds true AT ALL TIMES. I generally said with consent 99.9% of the time. When someone is about to brutally kill women and children then pardon my Polish, F consent.

[remydat]

Remydat, you should realise that after 14 pages of this...whatever this is...you are basically just typing into thin air. It's one thing to want to openly discuss a point but...arguing with a brick wall does not enlighten the wall and you end up looking like a lunatic.

Eh, it kills time and I love to debate so no skin off my back.

[blanchett]

Nah, what Jean did was completely unethical and unapprovable. Once we unanimously agree on that here, our next move will be to close down her appreciation thread, ban all Jean avatars and boycott every comicbook she appears or is mentioned on, until marvel undoes this travesty and character assassination.
Honestly, I'm disgusted and disappointed. A whole Jean grey, using telepathy in a non threatening manner that allows people to still use their free will? The hypocrite is becoming Cassandra Nova!!!
Yet they want us to root for her. Utterly Unacceptable.
The atmosphere in this thread has become toxic, I'll be in the appreciation thread of the X-mens Resident Ethics Teacher, Madame Frost.

You guys should chill.

Given your previous posts I think you are at least half taking the piss but this highlights an issue that I notice when any discussions take place. If you criticize an action a character takes then some people seem to take it as a personal slight. Jean isn't real. She's not offended that we are discussing a choice she made. Likewise Storm, Polaris or whoever else. They are all just characters. People really need to stop taking it personally when people aren't happy with an action a character you like took.

Taylor had Kurt raise the issue because he understand some people would question it. However, he obviously then had Jean respond so that he could explain why what she did was ethical. Kurt asked if she changed something in their minds. Jean explicitly said she did not and all she did was show them the other side............................ And sure Nova most certainly can use this against Jean. However, you cross that bridge when you get there. Again, in real life, you don't have time to plan what some evil genius may do. You end the threat before something goes wrong. Period. Everything else again is just something you can argue from the comfort of your keyboard because there is no real danger. Finally, consent is most certainly important. Except of course when the person that failed to give consent is about to brutally murder women and children. There is no way around it. It is unrealistic to expect any human being telepath or not to be worried about maintain limits AT ALL TIMES when genocide is on the table. There are no absolutes in this world. There is no scenario where anything holds true AT ALL TIMES. I generally said with consent 99.9% of the time. When someone is about to brutally kill women and children then pardon my Polish, F consent.

I am more and more convinced Taylor had Kurt raise it now and Ororo will raise it later. I think this will be a trend with Jean and they will intervene.

Nova may raise it. I think for me I will just never think that Jean Grey of all people didn't have options. This would be easier with Xavier because he couldn't pick everyone up and just fly off. Jean did have options. I think that's a difference here, because it was Jean I don't believe the mutants were in the danger that other people do.

Weirdly as much I disagreed with her actions the fact that it lingered with me I am really glad I read it. Absolute sign that something is worthwhile if you think about it afterwards.

Also I don't think this has been a "toxic" thread. There are trolls everywhere but in general I think people explained why they feel the way they do, on both sides, respectfully. Great we can actually do that.

[chaosfist]

Given your previous posts I think you are at least half taking the piss but this highlights an issue that I notice when any discussions take place. If you criticize an action a character takes then some people seem to take it as a personal slight. Jean isn't real. She's not offended that we are discussing a choice she made. Likewise Storm, Polaris or whoever else. They are all just characters. People really need to stop taking it personally when people aren't happy with an action a character you like took.

So it's taking things personally when people disagree with the thread you started and continue to post in? Were you not taking things personally in starting the thread and continually posting in it?

[remydat]

I am more and more convinced Taylor had Kurt raise it now and Ororo will raise it later. I think this will be a trend with Jean and they will intervene.

Nova may raise it. I think for me I will just never think that Jean Grey of all people didn't have options. This would be easier with Xavier because he couldn't pick everyone up and just fly off. Jean did have options. I think that's a difference here, because it was Jean I don't believe the mutants were in the danger that other people do.

Weirdly as much I disagreed with her actions the fact that it lingered with me I am really glad I read it. Absolute sign that something is worthwhile if you think about it afterwards.

Also I don't think this has been a "toxic" thread. There are trolls everywhere but in general I think people explained why they feel the way they do, on both sides, respectfully. Great we can actually do that.

I would never say she didn't have options. I simply think the other options don't achieve her goals. She didn't simply want to prevent genocide. She wants to weaponize the truth and that is what she showed the soldiers. The unedited raw truth in a way that couldn't be lost in translation. No other option would have allowed her to do that.

There may be a time Jean crosses the line and her friends will need to pull her back but we haven't reached that point yet.

[Bruno M.]

I can't believe this thread. If you let innocents die or get arrested in order to keep your moral and... ethics... you're just a stupid and horrible person.

People can't be that naive.

[Hizashi]

I can't believe this thread. If you let innocents die or get arrested in order to keep your moral and... ethics... you're just a stupid and horrible person.

People can't be that naive.

Have you bothered to read the posts? No one is arguing that.

[blanchett]

So it's taking things personally when people disagree with the thread you started and continue to post in? Were you not taking things personally in starting the thread and continually posting in it?

That's not what I said. I said the reaction from some people seems more based on how dare you disagree with Jean Grey as opposed to argue was what she did ethical in light of her other options. I don't think there is an issue with people disagreeing as long as we can be respectful.

I would never say she didn't have options. I simply think the other options don't achieve her goals. She didn't simply want to prevent genocide. She wants to weaponize the truth and that is what she showed the soldiers. The unedited raw truth in a way that couldn't be lost in translation. No other option would have allowed her to do that.

There may be a time Jean crosses the line and her friends will need to pull her back but we haven't reached that point yet.

That's where we disagree. I don't think you get any more private sphere than the human mind. Should we be surrendering all privacy to be "safe". I think her use of telepathy may even undermine her. She essentially stopped an army in it's tracks. It's still a show of force to world governments regardless of her methods. If anything given it was her telepathy it might be more frightening then if she used her telekinesis.

Have you bothered to read the posts? No one is arguing that.

This is the problem with hysteria. The mutants weren't in a threat because a woman who is such a powerful telekinetic she can stop moving planes, fly through space and contains stars was there.