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  1. #256
    Ready to roll out! R0d's Avatar
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    Every panel that had Cyke, Rachel or WiFi was appalling. Scott talking to them like they were ten year old kids and those two acting like they were, it was ridiculous.
    It got better towards the end, but still it ended up being a really bad issue. I have to say that so far, X-men has probably been the worst book of the new bunch.

  2. #257

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    I think rehearsed is the perfect word for the dialogue. They are rehearsing the dynamics of a family after not really being one ever. I find it beautiful that they are allowed this freedom and experimentation.

    New Mutants it the opposite because they are a found family who have had that dynamic for forever.

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Wifi risked his life to save Rachel in X-force and nearly got killed himself doing so.
    Good on him, but I wasn't discussing his heroism. Kable is not the Cable she knew, that is a fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    This whole status on Krakoa is contrived. We just see how things already are, not how they are build.
    True. Maybe Marvel plan to explore the period before HoX/PoX in a future mini-serie, or maybe during annuals. That would be nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Scott and Rachel have operated as X-Men together for years now, and had a fair number of joint engagements before that in the '80s and even '90s.
    Do you willfully ignore the content of my posts before answering? I was talking about Scott, Rachel and Kable having no history together, as in the three of them at the same place and the same time.
    Not about Scott and Rachel from one side, and Scott and Kable on the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    One word: Utopia. Before that, Reload. Further, Scott raised Nathan, then spent months more living with him recently.
    Kable and Cable are two different characters. Kable has never set foot on Utopia. This version of the character never lived with THIS Rachel until that very book.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    There's plenty. They just haven't made it official before now.
    They share quarters now, that's the only official thing there is.
    We Don't know what kind of dynamic they have developped in the timeframe they've been living together since, as I already said, no development was shown by X-writers between Extermination and Hickman's takeover.
    Before that #2 issue, we had no idea what kind of dynamic existed between those two.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Didn't Nathan go after her in his X-Force book?
    The two of them only met at the end of the book, and are familiar only with the older versions of one another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tunasammiches View Post
    - Rachel's known Nathan since he was a baby. She established a meaningful mind link with him, even when she lived with Excalibur and he lived with XFactor on the ship.
    - Rachel is not a stranger to Cable or Kable - she was in his mind for most of his childhood during The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, which canonically takes place way before the age he's at when we meet him in Extermination so Nate/Cable/Kable has always felt close to her...with or without Scott. Rachel and Nate have had multiple storylines without Scott involved...he is not the common denominator
    - The 3 of them HAVE been on missions together, Scott and Rachel were in plenty field missions in the 80's, like going to Asgard with the New Mutants, etc...and Nate and Scott did some stuff in Cable's book .... and Nate, Ray and Scott all were in the field together and fighting Cable during that story in Cable & Deadpool comic... heck Scott, Jean, Cable and Ray all fought Ahab together in Days of Future Present...(even though we didn't know Cable was a Summers then). Rachel WAS rescued by Kid Cable in XForce recently, and they've been living in the Summers house so they've had plenty of time for us to reasonably assume they've formed an organic relationship. Jean accepts him, Scott does too, why shouldn't Ray?

    I dunno. your statements don't seem based in fact.
    I'm gonna say to you what I already said to others before you: Cable and Kable are two different characters.
    Kable is just an alternate version of the original, no matter how hard X-editorial tries to sell him as the real deal. He and our Cable share the same past, but that's as close as he'll ever get to be him.
    So yes, Rachel knows Kable back from the Askani era as a result… a life she spent comatose and barely remembered when Cable brought her back from the timestream.
    She still never lived with Kable before HoX, Extermination was their first contact with one another and between you and me, Kable was miles away from the moron who was shown in this issue...
    Also, off-panel assumptions aren't facts... Meaning you are entitled to assume they worked out their différences off-panel and be fine with it of course, but I Don't have to be satisfied by said off-panel hypotheticals personally.
    From here, it's you who Don't seem grounded on facts.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


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  4. #259
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    True. Maybe Marvel plan to explore the period before HoX/PoX in a future mini-serie, or maybe during annuals. That would be nice.
    Hickman said that they would show some flashbacks, but it is anticlimatic and I don't think it is a clever decision leave a lot to be told on flashbacks

  5. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Do you willfully ignore the content of my posts before answering? I was talking about Scott, Rachel and Kable having no history together, as in the three of them at the same place and the same time.
    I ignored that bc it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to the issue. All parties have historical experience being family to each other and with Scott as a parent now. What do you want to see, him sitting them down with a Summer House chore chart?

    Kable and Cable are two different characters. Kable has never set foot on Utopia. This version of the character never lived with THIS Rachel until that very book.
    They're not different characters yet, though this is certainly a novel angle to take to avoid ceding a point in an argument. At this point in time, this Nathan was raised by Scott a few scant years prior to his current age and also spent months living with him. Even if Kid Cable grows into a different man from old Nate, that background will always exist. This Nathan also recently devoted extended time to rescuing Rachel. Then came a six month timejump. Logic dictates they then got to know each other, which brings us to...

    We Don't know what kind of dynamic they have developped in the timeframe they've been living together since, as I already said, no development was shown by X-writers between Extermination and Hickman's takeover.
    Before that #2 issue, we had no idea what kind of dynamic existed between those two.
    Now you do. Congratulations.

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I thought he was good on sam and roberto on Avengers. But seems like his dialog got alot worse
    I was kinda making fun of those two with with the good-but-obviously-rehearsed-dialogue angle. Oh well. Different strokes.

  7. #262
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Hickman said that they would show some flashbacks, but it is anticlimatic and I don't think it is a clever decision leave a lot to be told on flashbacks
    It is better than do 200 "Road to House of X" issues that would be for the most part irrelevant and skippable.

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Hickman said that they would show some flashbacks, but it is anticlimatic and I don't think it is a clever decision leave a lot to be told on flashbacks
    I'd rather have cohesive stories coming out to highlight this period tbh, it's much more interesting as a reading experience.
    But if Hickman said breadcrumbs/flashbacks is all we'll get, that's pretty annoying indeed. Oh well.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyriVerse View Post
    But they have. Cable's entire life was a field mission with Scott and Jean. Rachel and Scott have missioned with each other plenty of times over the years.

    And missions aren't a whole lot different from normal life, frankly.
    Cable and this kid doppelganger are two different characters for me. Furthermore, I said the three of them together, not pairs operating left and right or the times Rachel and Scott were with the real Cable. That's different.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    I ignored that bc it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to the issue. All parties have historical experience being family to each other and with Scott as a parent now. What do you want to see, him sitting them down with a Summer House chore chart?
    It does.
    Two different kids, same parent, try and have them live together suddenly, see how that goes.
    Scott knows each of them but them, they don't know each other.
    Rachel knew Cable, not this kid. Kable knew mother Askani, not her younger self. You can act like it doesn't make a difference, I'll still tell you it does.


    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    They're not different characters yet, though this is certainly a novel angle to take to avoid ceding a point in an argument.
    I'm sorry, I must have missed the issue where Cable remembered he went back in time during his teenage years to go kill his older self and deal with the O5.
    I presume you'll provide the panels deflating that argument then as a result? Thank you so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    At this point in time, this Nathan was raised by Scott a few scant years prior to his current age and also spent months living with him. Even if Kid Cable grows into a different man from old Nate, that background will always exist.
    Again, since Cable and Kable are one and the same according to you, you should have no problem providing me with that issue where Cable remember jumping back in time as a teenager to kill his older self and send the O5 back. I'll wait.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    This Nathan also recently devoted extended time to rescuing Rachel.
    As I said, Kable didn't talk to her before the end of his series, and only to have an utilitarian conversation about whether or not kill Stryfe.
    "Devoted extended period of time to rescue her" , true, but that time wasn't spent speaking with her or learning to know her.
    The only ones he spent real time with during that period were Cable's former teammates/students, not Rachel.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Then came a six month timejump. Logic dictates they then got to know each other, which brings us to...
    Too bad we remain in that off-panel hypothetical land here, that's kind of the crux of the problem isn't it, us not being shown what "logic dictates" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Now you do. Congratulations.
    You seem completely happy with things occurring off-panel without being shown to you and that's great for you, but I'm not like that.
    Sorry, that characterization still came out of left-field in this issue.
    Last edited by People Of The Earth; 11-14-2019 at 02:19 PM.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    It does.
    Two different kids, same parent, try and have them live together suddenly, see how that goes.
    They're adults/young adults. Not eleven year olds or cocker spaniels.

    Scott knows each of them but them, they don't know each other.
    Rachel has known Nathan(s) in many eras. This Nate is not so far removed. Kid Nate had knowledge of Rachel going in. It's also been perhaps a year or more since they first met.

    I'm sorry, I must have missed the issue where Cable remembered he went back in time during his teenage years to go kill his older self and deal with the O5.
    I presume you'll provide the panels deflating that argument then as a result? Thank you so much.
    Kid Cable's past with Scott, et al is identical to OG Cable's prior to taking out Old Nate. It has also been enriched since. You know that as well as I. Next:

    You can act like it doesn't make a difference, I'll still tell you it does.
    Not enough of one given the long history of varied Summers family reunions, especially the endless Grey-Summers morass of the '90s.

    You can say it doesn't matter - that you must see Rachel and young Nate sit down and hash out their relationship, like many other Rachel/Cable scenes of the past, in order to accept them sharing a bond. You're allowed to feel that way. But for those of us who have seen endless iterations of similar scenes with this family, it is derivative and unnecessary.

    I'm not the first person telling you it makes perfect sense for Rachel and the younger Nate to have grown accustomed to each other's company post-her rescue since the timejump, and I won't be the last. Since we're not all sharing a hivemind on this forum, perhaps you should ask yourself how we're each independently coming to the same conclusion opposite your complaint.

  10. #265
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Hickman said that they would show some flashbacks, but it is anticlimatic and I don't think it is a clever decision leave a lot to be told on flashbacks
    You would have thought they learned with Death of X that flashbacks are problematic when done too far out from the "consequence" and no longer match the outcome.

  11. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    They're adults/young adults. Not eleven year olds or cocker spaniels.
    No, they are not.
    So you know that it's not the same thing, you are just saying they aren't affected by it because adult/young adult = they dealt with it.
    Good on you to acknowledge what you presented isn't the same but, just so you know, them being older teenagers/young adults doesn't mean they'll be handling the situation serenely, and vice-versa for younger kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Rachel has known Nathan(s) in many eras. This Nate is not so far removed. Kid Nate had knowledge of Rachel going in. It's also been perhaps a year or more since they first met.
    "This Nate", "Kid Nate"... I find it funny that you yourself seem to have a hard time to speak of this doppelganger as Cable, eventhough you are trying to defend the notion that he is him...
    Rachel knows Kable from her time as Mother Askani, and " knowing" is a big, fat description for this, she admitted to both Cable and this doppelganger she didn't reconcile well with her life as Mother Askani and remembered only the vivid events that occured during that era.
    And Kable knows only that version of her.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Kid Cable's past with Scott, et al is identical to OG Cable's prior to taking out Old Nate. It has also been enriched since. You know that as well as I. Next:
    I'm sure you perfectly read my question, so why are you window-dressing?
    Again, just provide the panel where Cable remembers going back to the past in his teenage years to deal with the O5, we'll be able to move on from there. Since you keep repeating Kable and Cable are one and the same, it shouldn't take you long to point the issue it was referenced.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Not enough of one given the long history of varied Summers family reunions, especially the endless Grey-Summers morass of the '90s.

    You can say it doesn't matter - that you must see Rachel and young Nate sit down and hash out their relationship, like many other Rachel/Cable scenes of the past, in order to accept them sharing a bond. You're allowed to feel that way. But for those of us who have seen endless iterations of similar scenes with this family, it is derivative and unnecessary.

    I'm not the first person telling you it makes perfect sense for Rachel and the younger Nate to have grown accustomed to each other's company post-her rescue since the timejump, and I won't be the last. Since we're not all sharing a hivemind on this forum, perhaps you should ask yourself how we're each independently coming to the same conclusion opposite your complaint.
    So, you are just bored at the idea of seeing the two of them work out their relationship.
    Which is ok I guess, but you realize that it's something entirely subjective to you, how you feel about the characters and not a real, tangible justification to skip that process altogether?
    It's akin to being fine with the writer skipping the mourning process of a character to show him/her completely fine after his/her last appearance where s/he was devastated.
    Time jumping won't make it any less jarring for part of the readership, even if you individually are fine with that because "been there/done that" .
    I'm sure YOU know that as well as I.

    Also, I don't know why you bring out you and others reaching the same conclusion independently, why would I care about such a thing? You could be a million to be fine and dandy about Rachel and Kable figuring themselves out off-panel, it wouldn't change what I think of their interactions this issue coming-off as clumsy and contrived as a result of said off-panel hypotheticals...
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Good on you to acknowledge what you presented isn't the same but, just so you know, them being older teenagers/young adults doesn't mean they'll be handling the situation serenely
    Given all their ridiculous family has been through, is it so shocking they might take it in stride at this point?

    "This Nate", "Kid Nate"... I find it funny that you yourself seem to have a hard time to speak of this doppelganger as Cable, eventhough you are trying to defend the notion that he is him...
    No, I call him "Kid Cable" 95% of the time in my posts, actually. His existence may upset you, but as I do not venerate old Cable I honestly don't give a **** that he's gone. Sorry. As to the rest, again, I have no problem believing Kid Cable and Rachel grew more well acquainted in the off-panel months. They've done it before, after all.

    I'm sure you perfectly read my question, so why are you window-dressing?
    Again, just provide the panel where Cable remembers going back to the past in his teenage years to deal with the O5, we'll be able to move on from there. Since you keep repeating Kable and Cable are one and the same, it shouldn't take you long to point the issue it was referenced.
    He didn't, because his younger self changed history. That does not change the fact that while their paths may diverge in future, Kid Cable and old Cable share the exact same past relationship history with Scott from his earlier youth per The Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix, as people keep trying to tell you. And now Kid Cable shares even more.

    So, you are just bored at the idea of seeing the two of them work out their relationship.
    Yes, how many times should we read Rachel/Nathan getting to know you scenes since 1993? Asking for a friend.

    Also, I don't know why you bring out you and others reaching the same conclusion independently, why would I care about such a thing? You could be a million to be fine and dandy about Rachel and Kable figuring themselves out off-panel, it wouldn't change what I think of their interactions this issue coming-off as clumsy and contrived as a result of said off-panel hypotheticals...
    Nor will your feelings change ours. C'est la vie.

  13. #268
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Xavier also just died, we saw Magneto mourning but Cyclops is on dad jokes mode
    That's the other thing that's so bizarre. These stories are meant to be taking place at about the same time. They can't talk to Krakoa because Cypher is in space, and Psylock can't leave because Xavier died; etc. So they just had a massive terrorist attack, yet Cyclops and his adult children are goofing around and going on an adventure to this new island that just showed up. As a reader, I don't care that Xavier died because this is the first story in this arc, and a basic premise for this relaunch makes death meaningless. But in story, they should at least be concerned about the attack, even if they don't care that Xavier got shot. They kind of want to have their cake and eat it too.

    I'm seeing several people say that Rachel's stilted behavior is a result of recent trauma. Except, how long has it been since the Rosenburg run ended, in story? Did they convince everyone that Krakoa was the way to go, create the drugs, set up the portals and government in a week? A month? If it happened that quickly I would expect that, but it seems like the kind of thing that would take time, and she should have; well, not gotten over it, but moved on a bit at least.

    Dropping Krakoa on us with no build up was the biggest mistake of the relaunch. We're told its a paradise and everyone is happy for the first time ever, but only shown a couple scenes of them already there. It makes it all feel hollow and helped spread those crazy theories. And now that the series has started proper, there are big changes to the set up, but I don't care. It took 1 issue for Magneto to start ignoring the laws and creating backroom deals with Sinister. 2 issues for Krakoa to go out of control and bone another island filled with demons. 1 issue for X-force to totally fail and let Xavier die in a terrorist attack. Oh no, Krakoa isn't the safe haven it was promised to be. Already.

  14. #269
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Again, the alternative to just delivering Krakoa as a done deal is 500 issues of "Road to House of X", and then 500 issues of tie-ins. Hickman was absolutely right in dealing with that approach.

    That said, having Xavier killed in X-force #1, and in the clumsy, poorly written way he did, was just stupid.

  15. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    That's the other thing that's so bizarre. These stories are meant to be taking place at about the same time. They can't talk to Krakoa because Cypher is in space, and Psylock can't leave because Xavier died; etc. So they just had a massive terrorist attack, yet Cyclops and his adult children are goofing around and going on an adventure to this new island that just showed up. As a reader, I don't care that Xavier died because this is the first story in this arc, and a basic premise for this relaunch makes death meaningless. But in story, they should at least be concerned about the attack, even if they don't care that Xavier got shot. They kind of want to have their cake and eat it too.

    I'm seeing several people say that Rachel's stilted behavior is a result of recent trauma. Except, how long has it been since the Rosenburg run ended, in story? Did they convince everyone that Krakoa was the way to go, create the drugs, set up the portals and government in a week? A month? If it happened that quickly I would expect that, but it seems like the kind of thing that would take time, and she should have; well, not gotten over it, but moved on a bit at least.

    Dropping Krakoa on us with no build up was the biggest mistake of the relaunch. We're told its a paradise and everyone is happy for the first time ever, but only shown a couple scenes of them already there. It makes it all feel hollow and helped spread those crazy theories. And now that the series has started proper, there are big changes to the set up, but I don't care. It took 1 issue for Magneto to start ignoring the laws and creating backroom deals with Sinister. 2 issues for Krakoa to go out of control and bone another island filled with demons. 1 issue for X-force to totally fail and let Xavier die in a terrorist attack. Oh no, Krakoa isn't the safe haven it was promised to be. Already.
    It is kinda of some tonal whiplash and atitudes between x-men, x-force and fallen angels. Cyclops seems totally unfazed by the terrorist attack and xavier being killed on it. Not the atitude of a military chief. Unless Hickman want to show something is wrong and they are still high on Krakoa paradise.

    I think there is a 5 month gap between the call for Krakoa and X-men #1. A lot of things were skipped

    Krakoa seems to be cracking as fast as it was build. I guess it was a big mistake go straight for it.

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