Red Hood and the Outlaws #18 Preview / Discussion (Spoilers)

[RedBird]

It's not strictly a bad thing that internal bias exists and I like the point you make on what it means to explore Jason if he were latino but I would also prefer to give benefit of doubt if someone really does just want to fanart Latino Jason cooking spicy food.

Oh dont get me wrong, enjoying these raceswap concepts are perfectly fine and valid transformative work and explorations of media. Like I said I do like to consider the latino concept myself and before that had enjoyed the idea of Jason being half asian from the theory that lady shiva was his mother as suspected in ditf. Good fiction has derived from that plotline alone. But when I see these same people then take to twitter and berate the writer for not changing Jasons race because of their whims and the rest that agree with their idea of harrassing a writer into such a concept. I stop taking THOSE particular ones seriously. You know. The unjustly angry crowd. Fortunately there are people who just are in it for the nice art like as you mentioned, so thats nice.

[RedBird]

Woah, what a tangent. Back to rhato 18 though, what effect do you guys think the krypto juice is having on supes. Before he only needed one injection to not only restart his life but also make him more understandable in the first place. Does he need that much juice (the pool) in one go and is the kryptonites effect wearing off at a fast rate, or is this a exceeded dosage that may have bad side effects. Or both.

Also Kiwi nice connection amd constrast there about this pool for Biz and Jasons Lazarus dip. I hadnt considered that but the ideas behind it are intriguing.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Did the people complaining about the All Caste skipped issue 11 or what?

[kiwiliko]

in other cute things I noticed

-Bizarro keeps a picture of their adventure at the circus by his bed

-Cass is the only sibling so far not to have called Jason oatmeal head at some point.

[Assam]

Thinking about picking this back up next issue.

-Bizarro keeps a picture of their adventure at the circus by his bed

Adorbs.

Cass is the only sibling so far not to have called Jason oatmeal head at some point.

I didn't even know that that was a thing. Hopefully she'll get the chance once she's re-adopted.

[G-Potion]

Did the people complaining about the All Caste skipped issue 11 or what?

IIRC the All Caste wasn't explicitly spelled out in 11. But I remember some griping even then, because how dare Lobdell not let N52 go. Not that other writers did, but you don't see the same rage towards them.

[G-Potion]

in other cute things I noticed

-Bizarro keeps a picture of their adventure at the circus by his bed

-Cass is the only sibling so far not to have called Jason oatmeal head at some point.

Wait so Dick, Tim and Damian really did at some point? All of them?

[G-Potion]

Woah, what a tangent. Back to rhato 18 though, what effect do you guys think the krypto juice is having on supes. Before he only needed one injection to not only restart his life but also make him more understandable in the first place. Does he need that much juice (the pool) in one go and is the kryptonites effect wearing off at a fast rate, or is this a exceeded dosage that may have bad side effects. Or both.

Also Kiwi nice connection amd constrast there about this pool for Biz and Jasons Lazarus dip. I hadnt considered that but the ideas behind it are intriguing.

The side effect I think could be seen in the way Bizarro is gradually losing his cool, snapping at Pup Pup. Similar to how Jason was all rage after his dip in the pit. Like Jason though, it is both the circumstances and the side effects that make him like this. And the lack of inhibition when he took Faye out of the picture as well as HIVE Queen seems to say something about increasing cruelty as well.

[kiwiliko]

Wait so Dick, Tim and Damian really did at some point? All of them?

Whoops, looks like he's more saying his brothers have at least taken a shot at turning him to oatmeal instead of just calling him oatmeal but that's still fair game for siblings as far as I can tell.

I didn't even know that that was a thing. Hopefully she'll get the chance once she's re-adopted.

I'm not following what's been happening to Cass's place in the family(I thought she was formally adopted?) but I'm all for sibling re-initiation rituals, gotta roughhouse a brother at least once at some point.

[Assam]

I'm not following what's been happening to Cass's place in the family(I thought she was formally adopted?) but I'm all for sibling re-initiation rituals, gotta roughhouse a brother at least once at some point.

She was formally adopted in Pre-Flashpoint canon, but hasn't been adopted in Rebirth. However Tynion has said that he wants her to be adopted again and has teased at it a couple times.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

IIRC the All Caste wasn't explicitly spelled out in 11. But I remember some griping even then, because how dare Lobdell not let N52 go. Not that other writers did, but you don't see the same rage towards them.

If this isn't explicit then I don't know what it could be

[Robotman]

The Creeper!

One of my favorite characters and one who is criminally underused. A Ditko creation who has elements of The Joker and Spider-Man! Why the hell isnt he used more?!?

I really liked the art in this issue. My biggest complaint about previous arcs was the way Bizarro was drawn. He didn’t look “monstrous” enough. In this issue Bizarro had a Frankenstein quality that I really liked.

[Aioros22]

I`m not getting the complaints about the All Caste thing regarding the Rebirth setup. Not only it`s been mentioned (I think Jason makes a passing mention of Ducra in another issue) in issue 11 you have the All Blades showing in the most explicit way possible and the writer has mentioned more than enough times on interviews that he previous volumes and their content has not been erased whatsoever. Not the partnership with Roy and Kory, not the Croc being Roy`s sponsor (mentioned two issues ago) and not Ducra and the All Caste.

People are just daft sometimes and I`m betting those complainers don`t actually buy the book, they folow it from Tumblr posts.

[Aioros22]

The Creeper!

One of my favorite characters and one who is criminally underused. A Ditko creation who has elements of The Joker and Spider-Man! Why the hell isnt he used more?!?

I really liked the art in this issue. My biggest complaint about previous arcs was the way Bizarro was drawn. He didn’t look “monstrous” enough. In this issue Bizarro had a Frankenstein quality that I really liked.

He`s got to show up again with how the cameo was set in. Now we must know what his history with Artemis is and if that`s the sole reason Bizarro invited him in.

As far as his character goes, he woud add up tremendous raw character and psychology to the mist, which is saying something, as well as insane healing ability + unpredictability to the team. As far as I am concerned, Dikto did the best heroic twist of the Man Who Laughs fictional trope.

Now, people have noticed the similarity in concept of Bizarro dipping himself in the Kriptonite and Jason in the Lazarus Pit. What is your take, is he trying to achieve immortality or a higher state to further assist the others or is he just cheating death like his "mother" did?

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Now that I've had some time to muse about the issue, I can give my opinion.

The issue has a terrible problem with the pacing. It feels like Lobdell had to cram in one issue the contents of two, leading to an overstuffed story that tries to tackle many plot points and fails to develop them properly. While is true the issue is building up to other stories, Lobdell has proved himself to be skilled himself to build future stories while keeping smaller arcs self contained. And in that aspect Bizarro Reborn failed completely. The plots set by the arc had either poor resolutions or ended up to be completely pointless (ie DC team showing up), this also leads to the problem that Bizarro's plan depends on too many variables happening exactly like he wanted to work and that makes needlessly contrived the whole thing. Why the need to involve the SS? How was Bizarro sure Waller wouldn't stab them in the back? What if Batwoman didn't take them to Waller? and so on.

HIVE was a completely pointless addition to an already stuffed plotline that didn't offered much and took away precious space that Lobdell could've used to develop his other ideas like the thing with Creeper. But then again, the same could've said about Creeper taking space from HIVE, so yeah. Creeper having a past with Artemis is by itself another problem since it actually goes against what we've been told of Artemis' past (that she was focused on the Bow of Ra the entire time) and the relatively familiarity she displays with Ryder also conflicts with her hardass persona Lobdell has built over the whole series.

The reveal about Faye's fate and Bizarro's condition while interesting lacked proper build up and an uneven art style made them a little obtuse. I needed to read the issue twice to realize Faye was within the bottle and no an hallucination from Bizarro.

It can be argued that the erratic depiction of those reveals are meant to mirror Bizarro's state of mind but that should've been made in a way that conveyed better the situation and not leave the reader wondering if they missed some pages.

As a whole the entire of Bizarro Reborn has been Lobdell's weakest work in the title with more downs than highs that took the impact Lobdell had been building to. Then again, I also felt that Artemis' arc wasn't very good either, with only the initial arc being good from beginning to end. Possibly Lobdell has started to feel burnt out (and after nearly six years I can't really blame him) because I feel his work was more even with the previous volume and RH/A in particular.