Marvel Cinematic Universe Part II

[Writerblog]

Yeah, that's my only issue with what happened to that dude Walker killed. And wasn't it that red-haired lady who killed his friend? The guy that Walker killed wasn't even the worst Flag Smasher!

This is the roblem of doing justice with your own hands. Walker was completely not suited for the job

[Frontier]

I guess they were always meant to be villains but the MCU seems to take these villains, give vaguely good aims, then make them into murderers to justify the heroes. Instead of, you know, making the heroes have good aims.

I think it's less the heroes not having good aims so much as to make the villains more relatable to the audience.

[Albert1981]

The Flag Smashers deserve no sympathy...they are terrorists...plain and simple. And the only thing John Walker did wrong was he did what his country asked of him...he just did it in front of cameras. His military record and 3 MoHs did not come form filling out paperwork properly and accounting for every piece of equipment in a supply warehouse.

Oh, I do think the Flag Smashers were murderers. I don't think there's any question about that. I guess that Flag Smasher saying "It wasn't me" sounded like somebody who already gave up fighting. Just my opinion. I kinda wish that Flag Smasher actually tried to "fake" a surrender and try to pull a fast one on Walker. It would have made the Flag Smashers a more cunning and dedicated organization than they appeared to be (in my eyes). I mean they were terrorists but also not really hardcore ones from what I saw in the show (like a weird combination of the Habitat for Humanity and the Weather Underground). The terrorists I see on television seem a hell of a lot nastier.

[CosmiComic]

I think it's less the heroes not having good aims so much as to make the villains more relatable to the audience.

But then the villains become killers and terrorists so how relatable is that in the end? All it does it make the heroes look like they don't care until someone who does goes too far.

[Albert1981]

I don't think anybody disagrees with the idea of Steve retiring, and getting old. But I personally think that him going back to the past is the worst way to do that. Winter Soldier, Civil War and to a certain extent Age of Ultron were about him moving on from what happened and finding a way to live in the present, including embracing the people around him that matter, like Bucky, Sam and Natasha and maybe Wanda.

Oh, I thought folks wanted Cap to continue with more adventures after Endgame. Yeah, I can see why people don't like him using time travel to live a happy life instead of moving on, BUT Disney LOVES sentimentality. It's been their thing for decades. So I'm not surprised they did that. Personally, I was fine with it. I just thought it was weird he showed up as Joe Biden at the end of the movie.

[Frontier]

But then the villains become killers and terrorists so how relatable is that in the end? All it does it make the heroes look like they don't care until someone who does goes too far.

Relateable to a point up until they go too far, which is what turns them into villains.

I don't think it ever comes across that the heroes don't care so much as they just have different methods and see a better way than the villain does.

[Albert1981]

This is the roblem of doing justice with your own hands. Walker was completely not suited for the job

I wonder how much the serum affected his personality. He seemed like a pretty good dude (albeit a bit zealous) to me before taking it. But yeah, not suited for the role. I agree.

[Chris0013]

Oh, I do think the Flag Smashers were murderers. I don't think there's any question about that. I just vaguely remember the guy that Walker killed was pleading for his life or mercy? To me that's basically him saying, "Okay, you win. You can send me to the Big House now." I could be wrong though. And didn't Walker say that his time in Afghanistan was the worst time of his life? Like he probably killed a lot of terrorists, but it didn't sound like he lusted after battle (in my opinion). I kinda wish that Flag Smasher actually tried to "fake" a surrender and try to pull a fast one on Walker. It would have made the Flag Smashers a more cunning and dedicated organization than they appeared to be (in my eyes). I mean they were terrorists but also not really hardcore ones from what I saw in the show (like a weird combination of the Habitat for Humanity and the Weather Underground). The terrorists I see on television seem a hell of a lot nastier.

They guy just said that he wasn't the one who killed Lemar. And yes...John did a lot of nasty stuff in the military. That is a conversation that he and Lemar were having and how it affected him.

I think there was a lot of bad writing in the series. John had his moments but was not really handled well overall (IMO). And I like your comment about making the FS nastier...trying to make them sympathetic was a mistake (again IMO)

And too many times they fed into simplistic reasoning. Sam and Sarah don't get the loan? Racism. Not a legitimate reason of what the changes to the rules were that the loan officer told them. I would assume with the need to produce the most food in the shortest amount of time they would be focusing on ramping up larger scale businesses and not mom and pop operations like a single fishing boat.

The cop hassles Sam? Racism. Not because the cop has seen multiple arguments in the street degenerate into violence and maybe even murder and is trying to get in there to calm stuff down...and Sam's attitude of "what're you hassling me for, man." really didn't help.

Isiah's comment about how a black man wouldn't wear the colors? There are hundred of thousands or even millions of service members and veterans that would disagree with that.

Sam saying 'don't call them terrorist'? That's what they are. I get he wants to see the best in people and that is something I like about him...but once buildings start getting blown up and people start getting killed that ship has sailed.

But maybe that is just me and I want more complex and nuanced story telling.

[CosmiComic]

Relateable to a point up until they go too far, which is what turns them into villains.

I don't think it ever comes across that the heroes don't care so much as they just have different methods and see a better way than the villain does.

That's true but the heroes don't always seem to think about doing anything until the villains come along. All I'm saying is I'd like to see some proactive heroes. Most people fighting for issues in real life aren't killers and terrorists.

They guy just said that he wasn't the one who killed Lemar. And yes...John did a lot of nasty stuff in the military. That is a conversation that he and Lemar were having and how it affected him.

I think there was a lot of bad writing in the series. John had his moments but was not really handled well overall (IMO). And I like your comment about making the FS nastier...trying to make them sympathetic was a mistake (again IMO)

And too many times they fed into simplistic reasoning. Sam and Sarah don't get the loan? Racism. Not a legitimate reason of what the changes to the rules were that the loan officer told them. I would assume with the need to produce the most food in the shortest amount of time they would be focusing on ramping up larger scale businesses and not mom and pop operations like a single fishing boat.

The cop hassles Sam? Racism. Not because the cop has seen multiple arguments in the street degenerate into violence and maybe even murder and is trying to get in there to calm stuff down...and Sam's attitude of "what're you hassling me for, man." really didn't help.

Isiah's comment about how a black man wouldn't wear the colors? There are hundred of thousands or even millions of service members and veterans that would disagree with that.

Sam saying 'don't call them terrorist'? That's what they are. I get he wants to see the best in people and that is something I like about him...but once buildings start getting blown up and people start getting killed that ship has sailed.

But maybe that is just me and I want more complex and nuanced story telling.

Racism is a complex issue. You're acting like the MCU is inundated with anti-racist messaging when it's basically just a few moments in this show. 'Nuance' doesn't equal pretending there's 'both sides' to racism

And stuff like cops hassling African Americans happens all the time.

[Chris0013]

Racism is a complex issue. You're acting like the MCU is inundated with anti-racist messaging when it's basically just a few moments in this show. 'Nuance' doesn't equal pretending there's 'both sides' to racism

And stuff like cops hassling African Americans happens all the time.

My point about those specific scenes (banker and cop) is that instead or "racism' a few lines of dialogue could have shown issues that the country would be facing after the population of the world doubled overnight. That the amount of food being produced before they came back is not enough and there may be shortages. That there may be an increase in crime with all those people coming back which police are seeing on a daily basis.

[CosmiComic]

My point about those specific scenes (banker and cop) is that instead or "racism' a few lines of dialogue could have shown issues that the country would be facing after the population of the world doubled overnight. That the amount of food being produced before they came back is not enough and there may be shortages. That there may be an increase in crime with all those people coming back which police are seeing on a daily basis.

But racism still exists. It's not going to disappear because of the snap, and the MCU wanted to deal with racial issues in FaWS.

[Frontier]

That's true but the heroes don't always seem to think about doing anything until the villains come along. All I'm saying is I'd like to see some proactive heroes. Most people fighting for issues in real life aren't killers and terrorists.

Usually because they're focused on other things presently, in my opinion, and I don't think having villains with causes demeans real, good, people with causes at all, since the people who use those methods aren't depicted as being in a right to use them while their intentions are at least understood.

[MindofShadow]

The cop hassles Sam? Racism. Not because the cop has seen multiple arguments in the street degenerate into violence and maybe even murder and is trying to get in there to calm stuff down...and Sam's attitude of "what're you hassling me for, man." really didn't help.

You missed the part where they asked bucky if sam was bothering him. That was the implied systemic racism part... not the fact that the Cop stopped them. Is thta he assumed Sam was the problem. (and then it was all fine once they realized Sam was Falcon... aka "one of hte good ones"

It is subtle, which is how racism mostly is these days. It isn't people in white hoods.

Isiah's comment about how a black man wouldn't wear the colors? There are hundred of thousands or even millions of service members and veterans that would disagree with that.

And they were treated like **** and denied the same benefits white soldiers got. And I bet a high percentage of them (juts like whites) joined for a paycheck. Not some altruistic USA USA thing. It is a way to escape poverty.

And Isiah was show to be jaded. He was broken. So of course he is going to be a bit more "extreme" in his views. He's been through too much ****. They were comparing him and Sam.


FaWS had some clunky writing but this wasn't the clunky part.

[MindofShadow]

Eh, I feel like people miss the part with John.

It isn't that he killed a terrorist. Whatever, no big deal honestly.

It is that he killed a terrorist WHILE IN THE UNIFORM. He was Captain America, he has higher standards. He is a symbol... chasing an unarmed dude down in a foreign country and killing him in the middle of the street surrounded by people watching isn't Captain America.

Hell, even a regular solider can't blow a person away in the middle of a city who has his hands up. (only american cops can get away with that **** lol....)

Bucky and Sam afterwards didn't go, "you are going the jail." They simply said give up the shield (aka uniform) because he failed as a symbol.

John didn't go to jail afterwards for murder, he was discharged from the military.

No one cared he killed a terrorist. They cared how he did it while being Captain America.

[Chris0013]

You missed the part where they asked bucky if sam was bothering him. That was the implied systemic racism part... not the fact that the Cop stopped them. Is thta he assumed Sam was the problem. (and then it was all fine once they realized Sam was Falcon... aka "one of hte good ones"

It is subtle, which is how racism mostly is these days. It isn't people in white hoods.

And they were treated like **** and denied the same benefits white soldiers got. And I bet a high percentage of them (juts like whites) joined for a paycheck. Not some altruistic USA USA thing. It is a way to escape poverty.

And Isiah was show to be jaded. He was broken. So of course he is going to be a bit more "extreme" in his views. He's been through too much ****. They were comparing him and Sam.


FaWS had some clunky writing but this wasn't the clunky part.

1...Because Sam was the one yelling at Bucky. What...should the cop ask the agitated guy who is yelling if he is being bothered by the guy just trying to walk down the street.

2...Yes..that is how it was in the past...but there are generals who are black as well as highly placed people throughout the government including the current Secretary of Defense. The racial issues of the 1940s when Isiah was screwed over are not the same as are being faced today.