All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[numberthirty]

Biden passed the first climate change bill over 20 years ago. Is that not progressive? He got an assault weapon ban passed....is that not progressive?

Bear in mind, it is you guys that are arguing "never". Not about the balance of his record, you're making ass-hat claims you can't back up. Maybe you should tone the purity rhetoric down a couple dozen notches.

Politely, are you kidding?

[aja_christopher]

Do what you want, but I think the policy debate is on my side.

I don't have a "side" on this: I'm just pointing out that moderate Democrats win elections -- and pass progressive legislation -- more than progressive candidates, which is why it's ridiculous for you to try to single out my "opinion" in this "debate". My opinion has nothing to do with said observation -- it's something that's clear to anyone who has followed politics over the past few decades that Democratic moderates are more politically successful than progressives in American politics.

You can think policy is on your side all you want but votes and actual legislation are what count in politics, and moderates (Obama, Clinton, etc) are the "winners" in that respect, regardless of individual opinions cited on this forum.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Listening to him just fine:



This is in response to Harris flopping around on the issue. Private insurance, as the electorate knows it, is absolutely what he would be ending. Playing a game of semantics is silly and even more silly if you're going to argue the electorate would understand that very narrow difference in meaning.

Ugh... Again it's the elimination of duplicate coverage. So if Sanders plan is as comprehensive as it should be, then it replaces plans that cover that and creates the biggest pool possible for that coverage, which drives down costs for it. So yeah you lose what you have if the government plan is equal to or better than what you have. If you really like your plan and it's better than what you would be getting in the government one, then yeah you can get private health insurance. But ideally it wouldn't be the case.

There's a big difference between making a new insurance platform and ripping everyone on it regardless of what it has, and basically having a tie rule where if it's a tie or better you go with the government plan. Nobody is losing any coverage they would be getting.

Also you flat out said to justify your argumet "He raised his hand at the debate too...". That was in regards to a very specific question.

And yeah the provision in his plan to me is a very specific difference than what most people think of when they think of losing their private health insurance.

[Tendrin]

The very frame of reference we're using here, that the president is the be-all-end-all of policy vision, is problematic to me.

[numberthirty]

I think it's fair to say that actions speak louder than words -- especially in politics -- so what major progressive legislation has Bernie passed on a national level?

Not trying to attack him or argue about him since I'll still vote for him if it comes down to it -- just really want to know how his actual legislative record makes him more progressive than Biden.

There's a reason folks would like to narrow it down to just "Legislative Record..."

- https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...was_lying.html

Joe Biden On Anita Hill In 1998: "She Was Lying"

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

So you are claiming he didn't do progressive things? It'd help if you'd just honestly answer that question.

Perhaps before you do you should look at the whole of his record. It's not pristine, there are mistakes, there are also clearly progressive moments.

Are you claiming he's a progressive? Why don't you answer that. I don't care if he did one or two progressive things in his long political career. Do you think as the progressive movement is currently defined that Joe Biden would qualify as a progressive within how that group and how the country at large generally understands it to be?

[Theleviathan]

But ''what's off the deep end''? What defines that?

I think my low opinion of Biden is justified, that he is so lacking substance no one can actually defend his platform? No one has tried to to say why he has the platform, without that, I think I am totally justified in my outlook on him.

Read what Knight is posting, that's deep end.

If you notice, I haven't attacked or defended anyone's policies. I could, I have some strong feelings on free college for example, but the truth is it doesn't really matter to me. I will be voting to end Trump and the Republicans and support whomever the Democrats nominate. I am simply not comfortable with unfair attacks on any of the candidates. Plenty of credible, fair ways to criticize them I think.

[Theleviathan]

And yeah the provision in his plan to me is a very specific difference than what most people think of when they think of losing their private health insurance.

Given Kamala Harris' walkback, this is quite obviously not the case. Hell, given that half the people on that stage take issue with the position because the electorate won't like it is an obvious problem with these gymnastics. People will see this as ending their insurance. And they do not like that idea. Fair or not.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

The very frame of reference we're using here, that the president is the be-all-end-all of policy vision, is problematic to me.

You're right it shouldn't be. But the power of the Presiency has been raised substantially and the President does in fact become the defacto leader of their party. The reality is that next President will have a handful of opportunities to expend all thier political capital on getting a cornerstone piece of their agenda through. I think most people even in Warren or Bernie's camp know they aren't going to get everything done. But it would be nice to know what the next President will make as their signature priority. I know I don't have to worry about that with certain candidates.

[The Overlord]

I don't have a "side" on this: I'm just pointing out that moderate Democrats win elections -- and pass progressive legislation -- more than progressive candidates.

Based on what metric? Why didn't Kerry win in 2004 or Clinton win in 2016? Clearly is not a formula that wins every time. I think times are changing more then you think. Trump used left-wing criticism of NAFTA to attack Clinton, what was her counter? Trump pasted her for a close connection to Wall Street, what was her counter? The last election proved to me the ''conventional wisdom'' has failed.

Read what Knight is posting, that's deep end.

If you notice, I haven't attacked or defended anyone's policies. I could, I have some strong feelings on free college for example, but the truth is it doesn't really matter to me. I will be voting to end Trump and the Republicans and support whomever the Democrats nominate. I am simply not comfortable with unfair attacks on any of the candidates. Plenty of credible, fair ways to criticize them I think.

Then what are we debating if not who among the Dems has the policy platform and vision?

Read what Knight is posting, that's deep end.

If you notice, I haven't attacked or defended anyone's policies. I could, I have some strong feelings on free college for example, but the truth is it doesn't really matter to me. I will be voting to end Trump and the Republicans and support whomever the Democrats nominate. I am simply not comfortable with unfair attacks on any of the candidates. Plenty of credible, fair ways to criticize them I think.

And yet there are countries like Canada with a Single payer health care system that has private insurance in addition to that system.

If you think Sanders is proposing to eliminate private health insurance altogether, that's your opinion, but his health care vision is better than Biden's, even if it is not perfect.

Who pays more for health care, Canada or the US?

If you cannot defend your policies now, you will get creamed by Trump's endless attacks. I think weeding out the strongest candidate now is the for the best.

[Theleviathan]

Are you claiming he's a progressive? Why don't you answer that. I don't care if he did one or two progressive things in his long political career. Do you think as the progressive movement is currently defined that Joe Biden would qualify as a progressive within how that group and how the country at large generally understands it to be?

The fact you think these two things are the same question is probably part of your problem.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Given Kamala Harris' walkback, this is quite obviously not the case. Hell, given that half the people on that stage take issue with the position because the electorate won't like it is an obvious problem with these gymnastics. People will see this as ending their insurance. And they do not like that idea. Fair or not.

And some of them didn't walk it back because they knew their constituency would love it. The reality is that if it comes to pass, nobody will be losing anything that they aren't getting back. So whether perception is fair or not, the practice will be different. It won't be like Obamacare where people were told they could keep their plan and then got put on something they found inferior, that's where you saw people flipping out. With Bernie's plan, they are going to at a minimum get the exact same coverage if and when that happens.

[Theleviathan]

And some of them didn't walk it back because they knew their constituency would love it. The reality is that if it comes to pass, nobody will be losing anything that they aren't getting back. So whether perception is fair or not, the practice will be different. It won't be like Obamacare where people were told they could keep their plan and then got put on something they found inferior, that's where you saw people flipping out. With Bernie's plan, they are going to at a minimum get the exact same coverage if and when that happens.

See, you're missing the point. People don't like the idea of losing their coverage, no matter what promises are made about replacing it. This is a political issue as old as time. You can promise until you're blue in the face, people won't hear that part of it. They'll just hear Trump pound into the ground that you're going to lose your "wonderful, best coverage in the world" health insurance. Again, fair or not.

Trying to hide behind there being some form of private insurance still lingering in the wake is irrelevant to this problem. And it IS a problem for Bernie. To his credit, I thought he answered it well in the Fox Town Hall. He should keep saying that! (You know: you change it all the time with your work. Or if you change jobs. It's a bit of a myth that private insurance stays unchanged)

[Mister Mets]

Who said never? I didn't. I just think there are big problems with his record, that's all.

Again Harris pasted him on the ''forced busing thing''. If he is such a progressive, shouldn't he admit he made a mistake?

I would respect him if he did that, he could have said ''I was wrong, but that was a long time ago''. Instead, he doubled down on it. You don't think Trump will not bring that up? Its a total weak spot for him, if Harris can paste him on it, you bet Trump can do it.

Does anyone think Trump is going to bring up busing? Do you think he's going to suggest that he will as President enact policies to bring kids from majority-white neighborhoods outside of their zoned schools to go into majority-minority neighborhood schools, whether the parents are on-board or not?

[aja_christopher]

There's a reason folks would like to narrow it down to just "Legislative Record..."

I ask for actual legislation from Sanders and I get an attack on another Democrat in response.

I'd say never change but that would be far too redundant.