Understanding the Motivations Behind KRAKOA, and the Dawn of X

[spirit2011]

And that's what I mean. Astral ghosts, beside sharing the "aether" of life force, psionic energy and connections to the afterlife, retain all of their memories too. So it's beyond thoughts as a data form. For example, when Prodigy downloads the skills that are stored within the minds, does he download some parts of these people's souls? Doesn't seem like it. It's only data copied from another physical form. The distinction is what essential here imo.

Prodigy for sure didn't copied souls.

If we get a new Inferno event, the reason is that there is lot of souls of x-men on afterlife.

[Jackraow21]

One thing I just caught that bothers me: Moira says her death undoes all of this. But it’s her 10th and, according to Destiny, final life. Yes, I know, there’s a way in which she can gain another; but I think that may‘ve been referring to her faking her death with the Shi’ar golem in this one.

Regardless, this effectively means they have to keep her alive forever, no? Because no matter how far into the future she dies, it resets everything. At least if I’m interpreting what she’s saying there correctly. So that means that the timelines of all her other lives did not continue when she was killed, rather her death snipped those timelines out of existence. So if her death in her 10th and final life does the same, and ends the timeline, are they just doomed? No rebirth and new timeline, that’s just the end of the universe as we know it?

Seems like something that needs to be explained further unless I’m missing something.

[Havok83]

One thing I just caught that bothers me: Moira says her death undoes all of this. But it’s her 10th and, according to Destiny, final life. Yes, I know, there’s a way in which she can gain another; but I think that may‘ve been referring to her faking her death with the Shi’ar golem in this one.

Regardless, this effectively means they have to keep her alive forever, no? Because no matter how far into the future she dies, it resets everything. At least if I’m interpreting what she’s saying there correctly. So that means that the timelines of all her other lives did not continue when she was killed, rather her death snipped those timelines out of existence. So if her death in her 10th and final life does the same, and ends the timeline, are they just doomed? No rebirth and new timeline, that’s just the end of the universe as we know it?

Seems like something that needs to be explained further unless I’m missing something.

Moira could have been depowered from M-Day for all we know, making her death not reset anything. There is depowering tech that can be used against her that would achieve the same thing were she to die with her powers suppressed.

[Tycon]

Depowering tech is the next crutch after pointless deaths that needs to be done away with. I’m interested to know if there are any plans to explore mutants having their powers permanently. Cause “power-dampening missiles” is truly dumb as ****.

[Maestroneto]

Why do people believe Moira knew about Genosha's destruction? If it didn't happen in one of her past lives, she wouldn't have known about it ahead of time. And if it did happen in another life, I highly doubt it was destroyed the same way. Moira also wouldn't had known about the Decimation either. It seems like people are really reaching.

Life IV has a lot of similarites to Life X, including the P5 who were a direct result of the Decimation. She was also need events to happen as they did because otherwise Hope, Goldballs and Tempus wouldn’t have become mutants.

[Tycon]

Life IV has a lot of similarites to Life X, including the P5 who were a direct result of the Decimation. She was also need events to happen as they did because otherwise Hope, Goldballs and Tempus wouldn’t have become mutants.

All-but-confirming that Moira basically told Xavier to come out of obscurity to kill himself when the Phoenix Five and Avengers conflict started escalating.

[Omega Alpha]

All-but-confirming that Moira basically told Xavier to come out of obscurity to kill himself when the Phoenix Five and Avengers conflict started escalating.

Yes, and in hindsight makes Xavier acting like a dumbass there make more sense.

[Kisinith]

All-but-confirming that Moira basically told Xavier to come out of obscurity to kill himself when the Phoenix Five and Avengers conflict started escalating.

Not necessarily, you're constructing an entire timeline out of a handful of images all of which could have been taken drastically out of context. All we actually know of life IV is that 1) she embraced Xavier's open philosophy and it ended in disaster and 2) that there are some visual similarities to the 616. Thats true for most of the alternate realities or what if's we've gotten but there are often drastic differences in the details. Life IV is simply too vague right now to draw any conclusions beyond "it didn't work".

[ARkadelphia]

yeah makes no sense. If she truly is about preservation for mutantkind, it doesnt fit that she would not share this info with Xavier/Magneto so that they could be on alert to prevent the sentinel attack

She may not be truly about preservation of mutantkind. Let’s go through some facts...
- her first instinct was to come up with a mutant cure
- she is very afraid of mutants who see the future
- she wants all of the mutants (except for those with foresight) to live in the same geographic area where they can be more easily eliminated as a threat

[Tycon]

Yes, and in hindsight makes Xavier acting like a dumbass there make more sense.

Yeah, the idea that a lot of major events had to be ‘played out’ by actors who already knew what had to happen makes it vastly more interesting to pick apart.

Not necessarily, you're constructing an entire timeline out of a handful of images all of which could have been taken drastically out of context. All we actually know of life IV is that 1) she embraced Xavier's open philosophy and it ended in disaster and 2) that there are some visual similarities to the 616. Thats true for most of the alternate realities or what if's we've gotten but there are often drastic differences in the details. Life IV is simply too vague right now to draw any conclusions beyond "it didn't work".

I don’t think they would show classic images that parallel Life X without Hickman/Larraz wanting us to draw that conclusion. Besides, I doubt Life IV is ever getting touched on again, what we were shown was supposed to be representative of Moira following Xavier’s philosophy, leading them to live a life eerily similar to the 616 except they never adopted and revised Magneto and Apocalypse’s philosophies when it mattered and humans killed them with Sentinels and Nimrods.

[ETMike1988]

One thing I just caught that bothers me: Moira says her death undoes all of this. But it’s her 10th and, according to Destiny, final life. Yes, I know, there’s a way in which she can gain another; but I think that may‘ve been referring to her faking her death with the Shi’ar golem in this one.

Regardless, this effectively means they have to keep her alive forever, no? Because no matter how far into the future she dies, it resets everything. At least if I’m interpreting what she’s saying there correctly. So that means that the timelines of all her other lives did not continue when she was killed, rather her death snipped those timelines out of existence. So if her death in her 10th and final life does the same, and ends the timeline, are they just doomed? No rebirth and new timeline, that’s just the end of the universe as we know it?

Seems like something that needs to be explained further unless I’m missing something.

IIRC the Never Queen from Slott's Silver Surfer comics represent everything that should, would or could happened. So maybe those timelines became part of her rather than Eternity.

Edit:: After a quick Google result:

[FUBAR007]

One thing I just caught that bothers me: Moira says her death undoes all of this. But it’s her 10th and, according to Destiny, final life. Yes, I know, there’s a way in which she can gain another; but I think that may‘ve been referring to her faking her death with the Shi’ar golem in this one.

Regardless, this effectively means they have to keep her alive forever, no? Because no matter how far into the future she dies, it resets everything. At least if I’m interpreting what she’s saying there correctly. So that means that the timelines of all her other lives did not continue when she was killed, rather her death snipped those timelines out of existence. So if her death in her 10th and final life does the same, and ends the timeline, are they just doomed? No rebirth and new timeline, that’s just the end of the universe as we know it?

I think Hickman will explain/resolve that when he wraps up his run. In plot terms, Moira's 11th life and her past life conversation with Destiny about it is a "Chekhov's gun" waiting to go off.

My random speculation is that Hickman's run will end with another soft reboot due to Moira reincarnating one last time. X-continuity will be rewritten again with most of the timeline remaining the same but for a few key changes i.e. Moira is once again just a normal human, the Phalanx are no longer a threat, or something along those lines. However it plays out, it will have something to do with how Hickman's endgame resolves. It will also fit with his comments about "putting the toys back in the box" when he's done.

[AbnormallyNormal]

I think Hickman will explain/resolve that when he wraps up his run. In plot terms, Moira's 11th life and her past life conversation with Destiny about it is a "Chekhov's gun" waiting to go off.

My random speculation is that Hickman's run will end with another soft reboot due to Moira reincarnating one last time. X-continuity will be rewritten again with most of the timeline remaining the same but for a few key changes i.e. Moira is once again just a normal human, the Phalanx are no longer a threat, or something along those lines. However it plays out, it will have something to do with how Hickman's endgame resolves. It will also fit with his comments about "putting the toys back in the box" when he's done.

^ That's why I am viewing all of this as akin to "Age of X". Interesting , enjoyable but I strongly believe it's more or less an AU and not sustainable longer term. Characters may keep memories or certain aspects of it though

[adamTPTK]

1.Well, for one, I think these astral ghosts demonstrate a connection between telepathy and the soul.
2.Two, I think Cerebro is basically recording the 'frequency' of a mutant. Everything can be thought of in terms of atoms/matter, but they can also be thought of in terms of frequency. From the beginning Cerebro was said to work by detecting the specific frequency in a mutant's mental energy signature(brainwaves) that would identify them as being X-Gene active.
3.Hickman has taken that initial idea and factored it by Forge's tinkering with Shi'Ar tech(which is also sentient by its nature and can work with lifeforce).
4.Furthermore, my position has always been one of nondualism, which is where you seem to be stuck at. Hickman and I are both saying that yes, Cerebro is recording their memories and thoughts, but also their soul signature, the anima as Hickman calls it. Through a nondualistic lens, it's always the intrinsic Godhead which suffuses anything and everything with spirituality. So there's no 'individual soul' to preserve, actually. It's all just Godhead. Godhead shaped in a Scott Summers body with Scott Summers memories and anima signature is just as much Scott as there ever was(because there never really was a "Scott Summers" to begin with, it was always just Godhead in costume).

1.We're in agreement here, more or less. Could be headcanon, but I always felt in MU there's a link between life/spiritual/chi energy/force with electromagnetic spectrum through the Astral Plane and psionic elements. How? In physical world, our thoughts are generated and processed through neuronal networks, synapses. Electric signals within our nervous systems. This "organic electricity" allows living beings to command matter and elements, psionic energy and even fabric of spacetime itself sometimes. Maybe that's why psionic entities/parasites require physical bodies to be whole, otherwise they're stuck between the realms. But they find their way to reconnect themselves with the objective reality through the psionic links they can attach themselves through those bodies they posses. Still, it's just the Astral connection. The soul itself seems to be more mystical in its nature. Hence why actual ghosts, degenerated souls/demons, godlings and helllords operate in their own magical niche. So while astral forms are connected to the souls, maybe even far more close than to the bodies, there's still a disconnection. That's why astral entities like Shadowking, Malice and even Onslaught are different from all these restless spirits that you can find in Ghost Rider or Dr. Strange books. Astral Plane is a dimension of it's own, and so are countless afterlives.
2.As interesting of a thought as it is, does that really work with the aforementioned in mind?
3.I thought Danger was a tech mutant, she isn't really a norm in Shi'ar technology?
4.I'm just questioning if this processes and mechanics really work. It can be argued (or revealed) that mutantkind's astral forms are stronger and thus do not instantly enter the afterlife, a different to Astral Plane dimension. And since Phoenix Force has an affection with the kind as it seems, it potentially could fulfill its "astral purgatory" function of sorts. And that's where one of the Five could pull the astral form that still possesses both itself and the soul out, could be reincarnated within the newly remade shell. Does the Godhead work if we know how completely ununified the post mortem mechanics in MU are? And as we've seen multiple times, souls do seem to remain as individual and distinct as it gets.

[Londo Bellian]

4.I'm just questioning if this processes and mechanics really work. It can be argued (or revealed) that mutantkind's astral forms are stronger and thus do not instantly enter the afterlife, a different to Astral Plane dimension. And since Phoenix Force has an affection with the kind as it seems, it potentially could fulfill its "astral purgatory" function of sorts. And that's where one of the Five could pull the astral form that still possesses both itself and the soul out, could be reincarnated within the newly remade shell. Does the Godhead work if we know how completely ununified the post mortem mechanics in MU are? And as we've seen multiple times, souls do seem to remain as individual and distinct as it gets.

More so perhaps because of their awakened spiritual consciousness and Magneto's subtle encouragement that they worship themselves and each other as gods, maybe Krakoans have "realized" that all pre-existing afterlifes are HUMAN afterlifes anyway and they want nothing to do with all that anymore. So they would strive to revive all mutants still dead to liberate them from human afterlifes that they may exist eternally now that they can no longer die permanently.