Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Perseus]

That has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

I was asking how Diana is in year 5 vs in year 10 vs in year 20 vs in year 30, all the way to the end. How does she evolve, and how does her world evolve.

character growth in comics doesn't really exist.

[WonderLight789]

Would her enacting significant change prevent them from enacting changes of their own? Superman is supposed to inspire the idealized future of the Legion of Superheroes after all. And he wasn't designed with a shared universe in mind either.

But he has always been a blue eyes, the american way is the only good way, straight white dude. He was never going to face the same obstacles that still keep pushing Diana down.

[SiegePerilous02]

But he has always been a blue eyes, the american way is the only good way, straight white dude. He was never going to face the same obstacles that still keep pushing Diana down.

How is that relevant? The shared universe still doesn't allow his mythos to move forward too often and it dilutes the impact he should have and the progress he can lead in the world. Just because WW gets it even worse doesn't mean both characters aren't being held back in their own ways, and complaining about the other doesn't help anything

[bardkeep]

Would her enacting significant change prevent them from enacting changes of their own? Superman is supposed to inspire the idealized future of the Legion of Superheroes after all. And he wasn't designed with a shared universe in mind either.

That's true, and yeah, in fairness the connected universe holds everyone back. It's totally cool to put characters in other characters' books and do team stories and the like, but I detest the whole "line-wide canon" thing and cinematic universes are no better.

But even though Superman is also really hindered by the shared universe, we certainly haven't seen anything like Diana's equivalent of the future of the Legion. Her mission is to drive material political change, but I can't think of any stories where she or the Amazons have made any kind of major positive difference beyond Diana beating supervillains.

And the much more telling part is that when we DO see stories about the Amazons influencing the world in a substantial way, it's always one of these 2 scenarios:

- Dystopian nightmare where other characters have to stop them from destroying the world. See: Amazons Attack (Batman saves the day), Flashpoint (Flash and Superman save the day), Dead Earth (Superman tries to save the day but Diana kills him in a super-fight that's destructive it causes an apocalypse)

- They're jobbers in a larger war between other DC heroes. See: Dark Knights of Steel (enter the war against the Kryptonians, all wind up getting decimated including Hippolyta who gets casually lasered in half by one of Tom Taylor's Kryptonian OCs), Injustice (where I guess they're against Superman? but immediately become faceless non-entities)

Like, it's pretty glaringly obvious that WW's side of things gets undermined at best or actively vilified at worst to prop up other characters.

The only modern "here's what it would look like if Diana actually made progress in her mission" story is Earth One and that arguably fits into the "dystopian nightmare" category. And you have the Amazons being big damn heroes in Historia and getting into a giant fight with the gods of patriarchy, but the whole point is that they ultimately lose. But neither of those are in connected universes.

[WonderLight789]

How is that relevant? The shared universe still doesn't allow his mythos to move forward too often and it dilutes the impact he should have and the progress he can lead in the world. Just because WW gets it even worse doesn't mean both characters aren't being held back in their own ways, and complaining about the other doesn't help anything

It is very relevant. Despite everything, SM was still allowed to impact the DCU at large, while WW's impact is pretty much nonexistent.

[Agent Z]

That's true, and yeah, in fairness the connected universe holds everyone back. It's totally cool to put characters in other characters' books and do team stories and the like, but I detest the whole "line-wide canon" thing and cinematic universes are no better.

But even though Superman is also really hindered by the shared universe, we certainly haven't seen anything like Diana's equivalent of the future of the Legion. Her mission is to drive material political change, but I can't think of any stories where she or the Amazons have made any kind of major positive difference beyond Diana beating supervillains.

And the much more telling part is that when we DO see stories about the Amazons influencing the world in a substantial way, it's always one of these 2 scenarios:

- Dystopian nightmare where other characters have to stop them from destroying the world. See: Amazons Attack (Batman saves the day), Flashpoint (Flash and Superman save the day), Dead Earth (Superman tries to save the day but Diana kills him in a super-fight that's destructive it causes an apocalypse)

- They're jobbers in a larger war between other DC heroes. See: Dark Knights of Steel (enter the war against the Kryptonians, all wind up getting decimated including Hippolyta who gets casually lasered in half by one of Tom Taylor's Kryptonian OCs), Injustice (where I guess they're against Superman? but immediately become faceless non-entities)

Like, it's pretty glaringly obvious that WW's side of things gets undermined at best or actively vilified at worst to prop up other characters.

The only modern "here's what it would look like if Diana actually made progress in her mission" story is Earth One and that arguably fits into the "dystopian nightmare" category. And you have the Amazons being big damn heroes in Historia and getting into a giant fight with the gods of patriarchy, but the whole point is that they ultimately lose. But neither of those are in connected universes.

I wonder if there is a sense that writers feel the idea of the Amazons influencing the world has imperialism connotations and are trying to push back against that. It doesn't help that Diana's outfit was originally inspired by the American flag, meaning the character comes across as pushing US propaganda.

[Ascended]

But even though Superman is also really hindered by the shared universe, we certainly haven't seen anything like Diana's equivalent of the future of the Legion. Her mission is to drive material political change, but I can't think of any stories where she or the Amazons have made any kind of major positive difference beyond Diana beating supervillains.

You're not wrong, but in fairness nobody else really has that "I inspired a bright future!" thing either. We see a long family tradition of heroism with the Flashes, but that's about as far as it goes.

Clark gets credit for building the Legion's future....when DC hasn't taken it away from him and either erased his influence entirely or given that role to Jon. So even Clark's claim is shaky.

I agree that Clark and Diana would work better without the shared universe. Most heroes would, honestly. But I don't think that would result in their settings/worlds being allowed to evolve and grow. DC doesn't prevent these guys from making huge, sweeping changes to the world around them because of the shared narrative, they do it because they want the setting to remain relatively realistic.

[Perseus]

You're not wrong, but in fairness nobody else really has that "I inspired a bright future!" thing either. We see a long family tradition of heroism with the Flashes, but that's about as far as it goes.

Clark gets credit for building the Legion's future....when DC hasn't taken it away from him and either erased his influence entirely or given that role to Jon. So even Clark's claim is shaky.

I agree that Clark and Diana would work better without the shared universe. Most heroes would, honestly. But I don't think that would result in their settings/worlds being allowed to evolve and grow. DC doesn't prevent these guys from making huge, sweeping changes to the world around them because of the shared narrative, they do it because they want the setting to remain relatively realistic.

I'm not sure 'realistic' is the word you're looking for here. A world that doesn't change is unrealistic.

[HestiasHearth]

That's true, and yeah, in fairness the connected universe holds everyone back. It's totally cool to put characters in other characters' books and do team stories and the like, but I detest the whole "line-wide canon" thing and cinematic universes are no better.

But even though Superman is also really hindered by the shared universe, we certainly haven't seen anything like Diana's equivalent of the future of the Legion. Her mission is to drive material political change, but I can't think of any stories where she or the Amazons have made any kind of major positive difference beyond Diana beating supervillains.

And the much more telling part is that when we DO see stories about the Amazons influencing the world in a substantial way, it's always one of these 2 scenarios:

- Dystopian nightmare where other characters have to stop them from destroying the world. See: Amazons Attack (Batman saves the day), Flashpoint (Flash and Superman save the day), Dead Earth (Superman tries to save the day but Diana kills him in a super-fight that's destructive it causes an apocalypse)

- They're jobbers in a larger war between other DC heroes. See: Dark Knights of Steel (enter the war against the Kryptonians, all wind up getting decimated including Hippolyta who gets casually lasered in half by one of Tom Taylor's Kryptonian OCs), Injustice (where I guess they're against Superman? but immediately become faceless non-entities)

Like, it's pretty glaringly obvious that WW's side of things gets undermined at best or actively vilified at worst to prop up other characters.

The only modern "here's what it would look like if Diana actually made progress in her mission" story is Earth One and that arguably fits into the "dystopian nightmare" category. And you have the Amazons being big damn heroes in Historia and getting into a giant fight with the gods of patriarchy, but the whole point is that they ultimately lose. But neither of those are in connected universes.

As a long-time fan of The Legion (but a bigger fan of Wonder Woman) I NEVER could understand why Diana's legacy was never a part of LSH stories. It bothered me to no end because you'd think that the DC world's most prominent superheroine, and one of its three biggest characters would be an endless source of inspiration for future superheroes (but particularly for superheroines). And her mythos is so rich!!! Could you imagine a 30th century WW-inspired team of meta women who not only fight crime but do social/politicaL activism to help improve the lives of women everywhere across the galaxy? Also, I always thought that the the Trinity should have been the inspiration for the LSH, not just Superman.

[Agent Z]

In fairness, the Legion is pretty much a Superman thing and the influence of other superheroes is ignored. I think they had a Green Lantern who was the last of the Corps once but that's it. You'd never know the Legion was part of a shared universe that just happened to have Superman in it.

[marhawkman]

In fairness, the Legion is pretty much a Superman thing and the influence of other superheroes is ignored. I think they had a Green Lantern who was the last of the Corps once but that's it. You'd never know the Legion was part of a shared universe that just happened to have Superman in it.

Yeah, major wonkiness in LoSH... and it even ignores most of Superman comics too.

[Stanlos]

Ironically, Superman and Batman wouldn't have been made to look bad at all if Rucka had been allowed to do the story he wanted.

Yeah, that darn DiDidiot ruined SO MUCH. If only the Omega Beams were available....

[Stanlos]

I think Superman and the Legion offer one possible future. It would be nice to see others as well or points further beyond the 30th Century.

[HestiasHearth]

I think Superman and the Legion offer one possible future. It would be nice to see others as well or points further beyond the 30th Century.

See, at times like this I wish DC had a monthly What If?-type of comic. What If Wonder Woman Had Been The Inspiration For The Legion of Superheroes? or What if Wonder Woman Had Arrived to Patriarch's World in The 30th Century??

[Agent Z]

I like Yara (in theory at least). That said, she probably shouldn't have been and Amazon. She also should have had different powers from the other Wonders.