Ben Reilly: Spider-Man/Scarlet Spider Appreciation 2022

[Refrax5]

Funny enough, wasn't the 90s Clone Saga trying to establish Ben as "the real Peter Parker" and the Peter we'd been reading for the last twenty years since the original Clone Saga as the clone all along what made people, even on the professional creative side of things, turn against that whole event in the first place?

Yeah, which is where I was going with the whole "this just damages the character more since this kind of thing is what they're already notorious for."

I mean, superhero characters go nuts and have villain periods all the time. You just fix them and move on rather than go back and keep confusing the issue more by rewriting over rewrites over rewrites.

It's infinitely simpler to just have Kafka or Reed or Strange or whoever restore his mind and move on.

[The Black Death]

i take your point on other characters having internal logic broken (i don't know the specifics, but happy to take your word), and i assume marvel has just employed the usual superhero shenanigans to get out of them or around them.

the fixes other people have suggested from what i can see are no more ridiculous or illogical than the run-of-the-mill stuff that marvel and dc have done for decades (you could argue those are the things that gave us ben in the first place). to be clear; they are ridiculous just not moreso than any other solution. there's no "integrity" to preserve here; that horse bolted years ago.

if they write ben to somehow come back from chasm? fine. if they reveal chasm was never ben? fine. it's all a dumpster fire.

Of course, the problem with all that is that objectively speaking those supposed "solutions" rather than helping will only bring more problems in the future, an easy example for you to understand would be that you put yourself in the place of a casual fan of Ben Reilly who met the character by CC or Beyond, this fan is interested in the character of Ben enough to start looking at all the comics that the character appears, goes through the clone sagas, go through the stage when Ben was Spider-Man for the first time and so on until that fan gets to the comic where it is revealed that the Ben Reilly he knew was another character entirely, that fan would be confused and after seeing various explanations as to why Ben Reilly was never really the Ben Reilly that fan knew he would simply lose interest because of how stupidly complicated it would all be, put yourself in that fan's shoes and you would know how he would feel. That without counting the spiral of confusion and misunderstandings that would create that stupid revelation, you would also have to deal with all the inconsistencies that would have no credible explanation, unless you have a good enough explanation to justify all those inconsistencies that would be created by knowing that Ben Reilly is not really the original Ben Reilly you can comment on it, equally all that will not change anything the situation of Ben's character, it even worsens the situation of the character itself. All that was just a summary of what would happen if Marvel stupidly decided to change Ben's character again just to satisfy the theory of a few supporters, it doesn't matter if the character is ruined or not, the only thing that matters is not to complicate things more in unnecessary ways, it's that simple, it's not that complicated to understand that.

[Matt Rat]

You do know Marvel retconned a decade's worth of Harry Osborn stories six months ago right? How do you think post-OMD readers feel about that?

How about putting the original Kraven back in his grave?

Or retconning Sins Past? I doubt there's that many fans of that, but there's bound to have been a choice few that were invested in that turn of events.

Marvel will do whatever they want. In overly complex ways. That simple.

[boots]

Of course, the problem with all that is that objectively speaking those supposed "solutions" rather than helping will only bring more problems in the future, an easy example for you to understand would be that you put yourself in the place of a casual fan of Ben Reilly who met the character by CC or Beyond, this fan is interested in the character of Ben enough to start looking at all the comics that the character appears, goes through the clone sagas, go through the stage when Ben was Spider-Man for the first time and so on until that fan gets to the comic where it is revealed that the Ben Reilly he knew was another character entirely, that fan would be confused and after seeing various explanations as to why Ben Reilly was never really the Ben Reilly that fan knew he would simply lose interest because of how stupidly complicated it would all be, put yourself in that fan's shoes and you would know how he would feel. That without counting the spiral of confusion and misunderstandings that would create that stupid revelation, you would also have to deal with all the inconsistencies that would have no credible explanation, unless you have a good enough explanation to justify all those inconsistencies that would be created by knowing that Ben Reilly is not really the original Ben Reilly you can comment on it, equally all that will not change anything the situation of Ben's character, it even worsens the situation of the character itself. All that was just a summary of what would happen if Marvel stupidly decided to change Ben's character again just to satisfy the theory of a few supporters, it doesn't matter if the character is ruined or not, the only thing that matters is not to complicate things more in unnecessary ways, it's that simple, it's not that complicated to understand that.

i have my own cynicism about how many new fans CC managed to net.

i also think most superhero comic readers these days are literate in the language of superhero comics; which is partly retcons, reboots, rug pulls, swerves and resets. your average superhero reader isn't thrown by the x-men reincarnating as their own clones, or nate grey coming over from the age of apocalypse or cable coming from the future and both being the same dude, or joseph not being magneto or magneto heel turning every decade or so. in the same way that your average film or tv audience is now literate in a whole slew of tropes that would have been confusing back in the 80s, the aging comic book audience is fairly trope-literate.

and it would be somewhat hypocritical of me as a fan of ben reilly, to not note that he only exists because of all those crazy retcons and resets in the 90s. convolution is kinda his thing.

and superior spider-man/doc ock was also a thing, lets not forget.

it doesn't matter if the character is ruined or not,

not sure i agree

[Blanks]

I’ve never had any problems with the way Ben was revived. The 27-deaths, and him snapping. I got it, enjoyed and I enjoyed Clone conspiracy, up until the last issue where he attacked Peter with the intent to switch with him. I chalk that up to Ben’s trauma. He say that as Peter “rejecting” him I guess.

The Scarlet Spider run definitely showed us how much he was damaged, and as much as I loved the quick “fix” he got in Spidergeddon, I really didn’t buy it as the fix Ben needed.

Now with the Ben mini just ending, we can speculate on how much of Spider-cide was in Ben, or how much of Ben was transferred into Spider-cide.

Maybe when all this is all said and done, maybe can have Ben and Spider-cide “fuse/merge” into one being, if they go the route of Spider-cide having Ben’s memories. Be a nice kinda “reset” Ben back to basics. Spider-cide having all the memories and lessons taught by Uncle Ben and dumping them back into Ben, ontop of the experiences he had throughout Spidergeddon, Los Vegas and the Beyond/Chadm era…

I just want an ongoing Ben book ya’ll. Just him as Scarlet Spider, doing his own thing. Is that so much to ask from Marvel? Hell, even if it meant dropping Ben on an alternate Earth where Peter was no longer Spider-Man for whatever reason. There is room for Ben, but Marvel is just full of BS.

[Huntsman Spider]

I’ve never had any problems with the way Ben was revived. The 27-deaths, and him snapping. I got it, enjoyed and I enjoyed Clone conspiracy, up until the last issue where he attacked Peter with the intent to switch with him. I chalk that up to Ben’s trauma. He say that as Peter “rejecting” him I guess.

The Scarlet Spider run definitely showed us how much he was damaged, and as much as I loved the quick “fix” he got in Spidergeddon, I really didn’t buy it as the fix Ben needed.

Now with the Ben mini just ending, we can speculate on how much of Spider-cide was in Ben, or how much of Ben was transferred into Spider-cide.

Maybe when all this is all said and done, maybe can have Ben and Spider-cide “fuse/merge” into one being, if they go the route of Spider-cide having Ben’s memories. Be a nice kinda “reset” Ben back to basics. Spider-cide having all the memories and lessons taught by Uncle Ben and dumping them back into Ben, ontop of the experiences he had throughout Spidergeddon, Los Vegas and the Beyond/Chadm era…

I just want an ongoing Ben book ya’ll. Just him as Scarlet Spider, doing his own thing. Is that so much to ask from Marvel? Hell, even if it meant dropping Ben on an alternate Earth where Peter was no longer Spider-Man for whatever reason. There is room for Ben, but Marvel is just full of BS.

They could revive Spider-Man Unlimited and use the premise of the animated series of the same name (Spider-Man goes to another Earth or Earthlike world to fight evil and restore his good name), only with Ben as the protagonist. And yes, Spidercide would be just about the perfect fix for what's been done to Ben; he could infuse Ben with the foundational memories of being Peter Parker that Beyond stripped from him, much like he infused Ben with his lifeforce to save him from dying in the first place. It would also call back well to how Ben helped his wayward fellow Peter Parker clones find some semblance of humanity and redemption, this time with those same brother clones returning the favor and saving him. Quite poetic, in my view.

[Sr. Bungle]

They could revive Spider-Man Unlimited and use the premise of the animated series of the same name (Spider-Man goes to another Earth or Earthlike world to fight evil and restore his good name), only with Ben as the protagonist. And yes, Spidercide would be just about the perfect fix for what's been done to Ben; he could infuse Ben with the foundational memories of being Peter Parker that Beyond stripped from him, much like he infused Ben with his lifeforce to save him from dying in the first place. It would also call back well to how Ben helped his wayward fellow Peter Parker clones find some semblance of humanity and redemption, this time with those same brother clones returning the favor and saving him. Quite poetic, in my view.

Thing is, the JMD story leaves a lot of ways to fix Ben. Granted, every soluttion comes with its own set of problems. But I'll take any of them if they fix him once for all

[Huntsman Spider]

Thing is, the JMD story leaves a lot of ways to fix Ben. Granted, every soluttion comes with its own set of problems. But I'll take any of them if they fix him once for all

Generally cosigned, even if some would be a harder sell than others.

[Refrax5]

You do know Marvel retconned a decade's worth of Harry Osborn stories six months ago right? How do you think post-OMD readers feel about that?

How about putting the original Kraven back in his grave?

Or retconning Sins Past? I doubt there's that many fans of that, but there's bound to have been a choice few that were invested in that turn of events.

Marvel will do whatever they want. In overly complex ways. That simple.

Yeah, the Harry stuff was awful and confusing. But your ideas are actually worse, so....

[The Black Death]

You do know Marvel retconned a decade's worth of Harry Osborn stories six months ago right? How do you think post-OMD readers feel about that?

How about putting the original Kraven back in his grave?

Or retconning Sins Past? I doubt there's that many fans of that, but there's bound to have been a choice few that were invested in that turn of events.

Marvel will do whatever they want. In overly complex ways. That simple.

Honestly I never cared too much about the Harry Osborn character, so all that is irrelevant to me, the Harry Osborn cycle was closed a while ago when the character died again and it should stay that way for a long time.

The case of the original Kraven also ended a long time ago, if Marvel decides to bring back the character again in the future I won't mind too much either.

And you said it yourself Mattie, who will decide in the end will only be Marvel, Marvel will decide whether to take the complicated way or the easy way with Ben's character, as time goes by we will know who was right in the end, it's as simple as that.

[Matt Rat]

But your ideas are actually worse, so....

I have no quarrel with you, so quit instigating. It's just a comic book.

And you said it yourself Mattie, who will decide in the end will only be Marvel, Marvel will decide whether to take the complicated way or the easy way with Ben's character, as time goes by we will know who was right in the end, it's as simple as that.

It can swing back and forth with retcons, everyone always wins and loses depending on the choices of each differing writer. That's how Ben found himself in such a state to begin with.

[Refrax5]

[QUOTE=Matt Rat;6089365]

I have no quarrel with you, so quit instigating. It's just a comic book.

Look who's talking.

[Pav]

The juvenile bickering is unncessary.

There are pros and cons to the idea of retconning modern Ben into Spidercide, just as there are pros and cons to moving the character forward as is.

Acknowledgment of this would be beneficial.

-Pav, who enjoyed some excellent new X-Men comics today...

[Matt Rat]

Chasm returns in ASM#14

https://www.instagram.com/p/CfHVEC1p...d=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[Sr. Bungle]

Chasm returns in ASM#14

https://www.instagram.com/p/CfHVEC1p...d=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

That doesn't look very good