Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[JasonTodd428]

Pre-flashpoint Jason didn't have a book and was used as a secondary character to props up other characters which end up being badly received. This isn't case now and hopefully never will be again.

And there are times that he is still being used as a secondary character to prop up someone else even with having a book. There are also other times when his appearances in other books are not at all consistent with his characterization in his own book even with his having his own book. Sorry but I don't see how his treatment by other writers has changed all that much as a result of his having a book and I still feel that its been happening even in Rebirth. All I've seen, for the most part anyway, is writers who don't really know what to do with him or who don't bother to research properly so they either just have him standing around in the background but not contributing anything of substance or as comic relief which makes him appear to be a one note type of character. It's really the same thing as Pre-FP.

I'm all for not getting expectations too high because this always result in disappointment, but being too negative isn't good either. The new arc will start in two weeks, let's wait and see how it goes instead of worrying unnecessarily.

Sorry but only time will be able to ease my concerns in all honesty. Really the only thing that will easy me mind completely about this direction is when I actually have the issue in my hand to read (though I'm not particularly concerned with Lobdell or what he has planned only what other people may do with it) and most especially when I see any other writer outside of Lobdell using this new direction in a way that is consistent with how he will be portrayed in RH: Outlaw and not as an excuse to have him suddenly start killing people left and right because "hey reasons". Sorry if my being concerned is annoying but it is what it is.

[JasonTodd428]

I'm assuming since for all intents and purposes the 'scratched out bat' and solo thing is temporary. It's easier to make a wink and nudge statement by just crossing out the bat symbol on the cover, rather than say, redesigning an official graphic logo that may be changed back eventually anyway.

Only I though that we were getting a new logo starting with issue #27. Isn't that what the interview Lobdell gave said or did I misread it?

[RedBird]

Only I though that we were getting a new logo starting with issue #27. Isn't that what the interview Lobdell gave said or did I misread it?

Are they? I assumed changes would ensue with issue 26, is issue 27 where it officially changes?

"AndI don't know if you know it but the book goes through a title change with issue #27 when it becomes Red Hood: Outlaw."

It indicates the title changing but I wonder if they will redesign the logo too.

EDIT: ugh now that I think about it, I'd rather they just make the OOs normal rather than say, integrating his new logo into them. Not a fan.

[byrd156]

Just read issue 25 and the Annual with Roy. The character work is good between them but it feels so wrong and misplaced. It's just a constant reminder of everything Roy has lost with reboot. Yeah he lost pretty much everything before the reboot but this was a chance to fix all that and now he just feels like a tool to prop up Jason.

As for Issue #25 I loved it, losing the team was emotional and I loved the showdown with Bruce. This should have happened a long time ago. I get Bruce giving him a chance but Jason plays by his own rules and convictions. It just wasn't ever going to work out and that's how it should be between them. Jason as a villain or as an anti-hero who is still antagonistic with Bruce.

[Rise]

And there are times that he is still being used as a secondary character to prop up someone else even with having a book. There are also other times when his appearances in other books are not at all consistent with his characterization in his own book even with his having his own book. Sorry but I don't see how his treatment by other writers has changed all that much as a result of his having a book and I still feel that its been happening even in Rebirth. All I've seen, for the most part anyway, is writers who don't really know what to do with him or who don't bother to research properly so they either just have him standing around in the background but not contributing anything of substance or as comic relief which makes him appear to be a one note type of character. It's really the same thing as Pre-FP.

There's no comparison between how Jason was used in pre-flashpoint and how his appearances in other books went post it. I'm not going to go into another discussion about the latter because we already talked about it to death and in the former he was used as a villain with no motivation or reason because DC didn't have a direction for him at that time (even then, it was just three or two book where he appeared for few issues and it's nothing compared to the rest of history).

Sorry but only time will be able to ease my concerns in all honesty. Really the only thing that will easy me mind completely about this direction is when I actually have the issue in my hand to read (though I'm not particularly concerned with Lobdell or what he has planned only what other people may do with it) and most especially when I see any other writer outside of Lobdell using this new direction in a way that is consistent with how he will be portrayed in RH: Outlaw and not as an excuse to have him suddenly start killing people left and right because "hey reasons". Sorry if my being concerned is annoying but it is what it is

You are going to spend months worrying since we already know he won't appear outside of his book in the next three months? It's up to you, but why would you do this to yourself? Also, we already know that Jason isn't becoming a villain in his own book.

[Rise]

Dark Trinity by Christian Dave Gonzales

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/0NaQy

Fan artists really love the white streak.

[Zaresh]

Just read issue 25 and the Annual with Roy. The character work is good between them but it feels so wrong and misplaced. It's just a constant reminder of everything Roy has lost with reboot. Yeah he lost pretty much everything before the reboot but this was a chance to fix all that and now he just feels like a tool to prop up Jason.

As for Issue #25 I loved it, losing the team was emotional and I loved the showdown with Bruce. This should have happened a long time ago. I get Bruce giving him a chance but Jason plays by his own rules and convictions. It just wasn't ever going to work out and that's how it should be between them. Jason as a villain or as an anti-hero who is still antagonistic with Bruce.

Jason as a villain is a one-trick pony. It doesn't work anymore, and it's uninteresting for any long time reader. And also makes him a total tool to Batman as it put him at his entire service. He works better as an anti-hero working ups and downs in the heroic scale.

And this issue, the annual, wasn't about Jason at all. It was all about two things: Roy and what it means to take a step towards regaining one's life, and the Su Sisters and what familly actually means. You dislike Roy in N52? Fair enough, and I get it, really; but it's what it is now, his background has changed, and his history has been partialy deleted, same as had happened to a lot of C and D listers. Heck, even B listers like Dick lost a lot. We have to dealwithit andenjoy whatwe can get now (as a Wally fan, I know I will regret my words, but internally and secretly only).

[Rise]

I wouldn't say that the annual wasn't about Jason at all and that it's mainly about Roy. It was a celebration of the bond they shared and a send off for Roy in someway while also setting up for the next arc.

[Zaresh]

I wouldn't say that the annual wasn't about Jason at all and that it's mainly about Roy. It was a celebration of the bond they shared and a send off for Roy in someway while also setting up for the next arc.

Well, ok, maybe it was about Jason too, as they share the bond. But I meant more like, it wasn't that Roy was there just to make Jason show or progress in any way. It definitely showed a lot of how Roy was feeling and how he was towards others (Jason, Croc). And the themes were actually points at Jason's overarc service (family, recovery), but they weren't just his. I am bad at translating what I mean, I know. I apologize.

In any case, it was also a very nice tribute for those who did like the former team.

[Rise]

Nah, it's ok. I got what you mean.

Just be careful not to get any argument about n52 rhato going because it's always lead to nowhere.

[JasonTodd428]

There's no comparison between how Jason was used in pre-flashpoint and how his appearances in other books went post it. I'm not going to go into another discussion about the latter because we already talked about it to death and in the former he was used as a villain with no motivation or reason because DC didn't have a direction for him at that time (even then, it was just three or two book where he appeared for few issues and it's nothing compared to the rest of history).

I wasn't saying it was literally the same thing though. While he wasn't a villain with no motivation this time around I would say that writers clearly still had no idea what to do with him either and in that way it is pretty much the same as Pre-FP. Just my opinion.

You are going to spend months worrying since we already know he won't appear outside of his book in the next three months? It's up to you, but why would you do this to yourself? Also, we already know that Jason isn't becoming a villain in his own book.

You seem to think that I'm gonna spend the next several months actively worrying my fool head off when that's not really the case at all. Am I concerned on some level sure but I'm not gonna be sitting around every waking moment biting my nails and wringing my hands over this either. That would be ridiculous. I've plenty of other things to occupy my time that are vastly more important than that. And I never said he was becoming a villiain in his own book. I'm NOT concerned about what Lobdell's gonna do in his own book and I believe I've already said that a zillion times now.

[Rise]

I didn't say you are going to spend your free time worrying about it, I just hoped that not every single time we talk about the new arc you start worrying about how the other writers will handle it.

I honestly don't get why you are so worried that other writers will use it as chance to write him as villain. But like I said before, I don't want to get into another discussion about the writers who only wrote him for few pages and has no affect on him.

[byrd156]

Jason as a villain is a one-trick pony. It doesn't work anymore, and it's uninteresting for any long time reader. And also makes him a total tool to Batman as it put him at his entire service. He works better as an anti-hero working ups and downs in the heroic scale.

And this issue, the annual, wasn't about Jason at all. It was all about two things: Roy and what it means to take a step towards regaining one's life, and the Su Sisters and what familly actually means. You dislike Roy in N52? Fair enough, and I get it, really; but it's what it is now, his background has changed, and his history has been partialy deleted, same as had happened to a lot of C and D listers. Heck, even B listers like Dick lost a lot. We have to dealwithit andenjoy whatwe can get now (as a Wally fan, I know I will regret my words, but internally and secretly only).

Just accepting inferior versions that are just as 2-Dimensional as the paper they are printed on isn't something that I want to do. Taking away everything that makes these characters special and then saying deal with it is BS. Why should we accept that? Just because it's the only choice?

People voted and they wanted Jason dead because they didn't like him. He came back and him wanting vengeance is what his character journey should be about. The only reason he has been getting all the love is because of the reboot which took elements, characters, and relationships from more successful characters and used those things to prop Jason up. The Outlaws were built on Dick's friends and relationships. Bizarro and Artemis were definite upgrades because those characters fit a hell of a lot better than Starfire and Roy.

Jason being a villain works well, we saw it work wonders in Morrison's run on Batman. Some people dislike the costume and that's fine but I loved it, that Jason was smart and felt like he was strong in his convictions and characterization. He wanted to take Batman's teachings and twist them into his own dark version of justice. Even taking on his own "Robin" with Scarlet. He is still considered an anti-hero who kills bad guys while being at odds with Batman. The reason I can't get behind this action hero anti-hero Red Hood is because he feels so surface level. I don't feel any depth to him or his mission which should be ridding criminals in his own brutal form of justice. I prefer heroes who don't kill over those that do but one reason I love characters like Ghost Rider or Punisher is because theses anti-heroes stick to their convictions and missions. They don't falter or deal with someone else and say I'll be good or tone myself down for you. Sure there are certain instances when that happens but not to the extent of Jason. Jason promised that he wouldn't kill and gets to part of the bat-family again. That's why I'm so glad Batman killed the crap out of him and took away his symbol.

Jason doesn't belong in the bat-family anymore, it makes him look weak. He compromises his beliefs and convictions so he gets to hang out with the other kids. He should say, "F*** you Bruce! I do things my own way and there is nothing short of killing me again that will stop me." I personally don't like the reboot Jason because I find Lodbell's writing for him to be very annoying and the major issue of Jason still being on good terms with Bruce. Part of the tragedy of Jason's character should be that he lost that connection and wants it back but can't. It felt so damn artificial and unearned. Jason should be the cast out son who is at odds with the very people he wants to be with. That makes for good drama, not Jason saying "you're right I won't kill in Gotham" but run around elsewhere and kill people. It makes Bruce look weak and stupid along with the rest of the family. It's a no win scenario for both sides and I'm glad things are finally making a turn.

I actually liked Pre-Flashpoint Jason because he was a tragic character. All that feels gone now.

[Rise]

Just accepting inferior versions that are just as 2-Dimensional as the paper they are printed on isn't something that I want to do

He should say, "F*** you Bruce! I do things my own way and there is nothing short of killing me again that will stop me."

[Rise]

This pretty accurate.