"At the end of the day, Arby is a pretty prolific poster proposing a plurality of proper posts for us."
- big_adventure
I understand perfectly. Your arguments boil down to "Can DD's feats as a sentient clone be transferred to a mindless HP DD". Well yes arguably, given HP literally has this
https://i.postimg.cc/8kK9RvwR/image.jpg
And Jonn faced both this exact DD by the same writer, and one with a "mind" controlled by Braniac, before he faced the DD clone
The second part of your argument relies on reading the comic in a way that makes no sense and strains painfully to arrive at "nah DD doesn't get TP resistance feats" any which way , by analysing individual panels, and even then ultimately having to concede DD resisted to some extent
Again, the first part about feats not transferring over across different versions would have made sense.... if only you were not otherwise arguing for earlier versions of Braniac being comparable to whatever he did later. There's a contradiction there then to claim various versions of DD don't transfer feats but various versions of Braniac (in explicitly different bodies no less) do
Clark stacks up fairly well at times.What about Clark? You're versed on Clark? How does J'onn TP'ing Clark stack up against Brainiac TP'ing Clark?
https://m.imgur.com/a/TrlgF
To which you might say, well the MMH has way better feats and that's Clark jobbing him out. I'd agree, but it's you who's deciding by the arbitrary metric of "performances against Superman" not me. So I hope you do not shift the goalposts after this....
Just as one example, MMH has had difficulty controlling Flashes, needing Wally to slow down enough to control him, while Braniac controlled Flash just fine (while also controlling DD) in DD warsIn fact, how does Brainiac stack up to J'onn in the TP department minus Doomsday?
Not when Braniac's other bodies do stuff like spread their consciousness all over the universe and remake it in their imageHands down, J'onn outperforms Brainiac.
https://i.postimg.cc/MqWDzgsQ/image.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/jSnfk6Rz/image.jpg
So here we are back to where we started. "braniac's stuff doesn't count because he doesn't have feats, Thanos' however totally do"I'm just not feeling Brainiac can TP Doomsday, but J'onn cant.
Braniac and DD have never had any solo titles, Thanos has had many, yet you're not once asking for Thanos doing anything like controlling millions of folks to justify the performance against Moondragon yet Braniac must have feats despite having a fraction of Thanos' appearances
Braniac's performances across various bodies totally count (except when they don't) but DD's stronger versions do not get the feats of the weaker ones
Yeah, all I'm getting from you so far is to arrive at "But DD cannot resist TP " any which way, contradicting your own arguments to do so.
Last edited by The Dork Knight; 07-08-2019 at 10:48 PM.
Just on this, it's not like his series really ever run that long. Him and Braniac certainly probably don't have that big a gap between them, relatively speaking, for "times they actually did something". Braniac having a more overall longer sustained career vs Thanos having these bursts of focus depending on when the character gets some popularity.Braniac and DD have never had any solo titles, Thanos has had many, yet you're not once asking for Thanos doing anything like controlling millions of folks to justify the performance against Moondragon yet Braniac must have feats despite having a fraction of Thanos' appearances
edit, with that said, doing another pass:
Okay, Braniac in his Braniac 13 mode should very much be a mix of special circumstances and "bridge too far, even for limited showings", with an additional helping of "yeah, but OWAW".Not when Braniac's other bodies do stuff like spread their consciousness all over the universe and remake it in their image
https://i.postimg.cc/MqWDzgsQ/image.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/jSnfk6Rz/image.jpg
Last edited by Pendaran; 07-09-2019 at 12:09 AM.
Umm.... no. All of post crisis Braniac's extremely varied appearances taken together, from circus freak to a collector of worlds numbers about 120. Thanos is currently at 400 + , having been at roughly " Avengers buster" level from day 1. There's a clear difference, he's more comparable to post crisis Darkseid (400+) as a DC/Marvel wide villain than a character specific villain
I have no problem with Thanos being given the TP feats, since he also has some other performances (against other folks mostly but still TP is not his primary power). My problem being more with a character with clearly fewer appearances not being given the same privilege
Ok but then you still have regular Braniac taking over the universe in the Legion's future towards the end of New Krypton, the same Braniac later bottles up worlds from different universes and helps recreate the multiverse in Convergence. Braniacs tend to become over the top all powerful beings in future timelines, if we are counting all versions of Braniac, which apparently we areOkay, Braniac in his Braniac 13 mode should very much be a mix of special circumstances and "bridge too far, even for limited showings", with an additional helping of "yeah, but OWAW".
At some point, DC decided they had nerfed Superman too much with the Post-Crisis reboot, and went through a series of comics showing him starting toward what we consider his Post-Crisis level of power. Power-creep then ensued, but there was an actual in-story reason why his overall heft suddenly rocketed upward.
Why are we here?
"Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
"...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
"Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate
Oh, I completely agree - I was really more going with "there was a lot of weak stuff mixed with some things that are really strong, enough so that we kind of have to use where DC went AFTER that period to really judge post-crisis feats."
It's funny, really, given that DC did the whole COIE thing specifically to bring the powerscale back down (if everyone is a multi-planet-buster with massively FTL reflexes, there just aren't any more planets to stand on), then went "oops" and jacked it back up. It's like they had a clairvoyant moment where they were seeing Superman losing Death Battles on YouTube to Hulk or something, said "not on my watch" and reversed course.
"But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
"Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
"...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan
It was a trifle bizarre. But I expect Superman getting taken out by exploding gas stations (to lean on one example) wasn't really feeling all that 'super'. He also couldn't fly around the world quickly, couldn't really fly too far into space (needing to hold his breath, and couldn't do so for a long period), etc.
So then boom, he goes through a weird metamorphosis and suddenly gets a massive power-up.
Which had the side effect of him losing the mullet, as I recall, so thank goodness for small favours.
Why are we here?
"Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
"...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
"Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate
"But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
"Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
"...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan
Why are we here?
"Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
"...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
"Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate
In how many of those appearances do you think Thanos did anything in terms of an actual performance is my point there. Braniac, as someone's regular rogues gallery person, by contrast to fewer showings, generally when he shows up, does a thing, for showing up as someone else's villain. Relatively speaking it's comparable is what I'm saying. Neither, compared to something like a character who anchors their own regular running series, has shown up that much in the grand scheme of things.Umm.... no. All of post crisis Braniac's extremely varied appearances taken together, from circus freak to a collector of worlds numbers about 120. Thanos is currently at 400 + , having been at roughly " Avengers buster" level from day 1. There's a clear difference, he's more comparable to post crisis Darkseid (400+) as a DC/Marvel wide villain than a character specific villain
I have no problem with Thanos being given the TP feats, since he also has some other performances (against other folks mostly but still TP is not his primary power). My problem being more with a character with clearly fewer appearances not being given the same privilege
Also, you're conflating me with Cronus at this point. At what point in my posts have I done anything but go "who overall has been depicted as the stronger telepath?", if I've questioned a showing of Braniac's, it has been in that context, or, say, pointing to B13 things.
Also, I'm the one who came into this thread to note "you can't say Thanos is offensively some kind of Xavier level telepath really", so what privilege am I not extending to who ;p I've been pretty consistent here, I'd think.
We're counting all versions of Braniac according to who? Also, you're getting well off the note of "Braniac's telepathy" here. All of those things involve really specific situations and particular context within them.Ok but then you still have regular Braniac taking over the universe in the Legion's future towards the end of New Krypton, the same Braniac later bottles up worlds from different universes and helps recreate the multiverse in Convergence. Braniacs tend to become over the top all powerful beings in future timelines, if we are counting all versions of Braniac, which apparently we are
I'm talking here about Braniac's telepathy and the depiction of its strength in contrast to J'onn's telepathy and the depiction of its strength, without, say, really specific situational factors.
About as many as Braniac did probably cuz I sure as heck don't remember 120 appearances for that guy, it probably includes all guidebooks and one panel cameos and such. But the ratio of appearances is probably correct, Braniac has a fraction of Thanos' appearances. This you cannot deny. I mean off the top of my head Thanos has had 50 odd issues with his name on the title, Braniac none. That was enough for you to judge Deathstroke's stats for instance
And yet it's just straight up wrong to suggest they are comparable characters when Thanos has 3 times the appearances. Thanos even accounting for that he may not always be the main villain, on sheer no of appearances alone has way many more feats than Braniac, you don't even need to compare appearances from DC or Marvel wikis, even a layman can tell you Thanos is, relatively, featured way more than BraniacBraniac, as someone's regular rogues gallery person, by contrast to fewer showings, generally when he shows up, does a thing, for showing up as someone else's villain. Relatively speaking it's comparable is what I'm saying. Neither, compared to something like a character who anchors their own regular running series, has shown up that much in the grand scheme of things.
Further Braniac's powers fluctuate in bodies, not to mention DC's slow power creep from post COIE to Flashpoint. It's simply not fair to say they are comparable characters.
A question I've answered already- Braniac's powers change with bodies such that he explicitly had to get a new one because the old one was falling apart under his powers.Also, you're conflating me with Cronus at this point. At what point in my posts have I done anything but go "who overall has been depicted as the stronger telepath?",
https://i.postimg.cc/pdCGcQVx/image.jpg
https://m.imgur.com/a/j44w7
Further, as to who is the stronger telepath? It's unclear enough for J'onn up to that point in the comics for Braniac being better to not come off as a big issue with a character like him switching bodies and with limited showings
B-13 is nothing but a future Braniac, literally teaming up with current Braniacif I've questioned a showing of Braniac's, it has been in that context, or, say, pointing to B13 things.
Ok but I'd like to say compared to Thanos Braniac actually has better independent non telepath related TP feats for his performances against Telepaths to be justifiedAlso, I'm the one who came into this thread to note "you can't say Thanos is offensively some kind of Xavier level telepath really", so what privilege am I not extending to who ;p I've been pretty consistent here, I'd think.
Well according to Cronus and... you I guess, since you are asking for previous showings of Braniac despite as noted his power fluctuationsWe're counting all versions of Braniac according to who? Also, you're getting well off the note of "Braniac's telepathy" here.
Braniac's TP is amplified by his tech, ergo over time with his tech getting better his showings like turning the universe red in the Legion story from New Krypton with Braniac 5 saying stuff like "the universe is Braniac" Or the B13 stuff comes across as not so different from using mind control or spreading consciousness and such, B13 for instance was controlling a city through tech in a way that made it indistinguishable from mind controlAll of those things involve really specific situations and particular context within them.
I'm talking here about Braniac's telepathy and the depiction of its strength in contrast to J'onn's telepathy and the depiction of its strength, without, say, really specific situational factors.
Okay, that's again the only thing I'm saying. You seem to feel like I'm advocating for some different standard of measuring them that would default exempt Braniac's showings when the post I said that you replied to in the first place on this said:About as many as Braniac did probably cuz I sure as heck don't remember 120 appearances for that guy,
Him and Braniac certainly probably don't have that big a gap between them, relatively speaking, for "times they actually did something".When the end result is "both of them thus can really only be taken at what showings they have and one has to do the best they can to work something out of them", in what way is it not fair? I compared them both to being basically upjumped versions of Count Nefaria, what is it you think I'm saying when I do that?And yet it's just straight up wrong to suggest they are comparable characters when Thanos has 3 times the appearances. Thanos even accounting for that he may not always be the main villain, on sheer no of appearances alone has way many more feats than Braniac, you don't even need to compare appearances from DC or Marvel wikis, even a layman can tell you Thanos is, relatively, featured way more than Braniac
Further Braniac's powers fluctuate in bodies, not to mention DC's slow power creep from post COIE to Flashpoint. It's simply not fair to say they are comparable characters.
When neither are anything but fractional to the main characters of their universes, they occupy a similar situation and the difference is basically a matter of degree. You're not losing some point of logic when that gets noted.
Especially, and specifically, and again there's another thing where I note this, in the case of something like Thanos' telepathic capacity.
That doesn't really answer it I guess I'm saying. Said another way, if the big issue is that his old body was falling apart or that kind of thing, if he's in a body that isn't, wouldn't his showings while his bodies are intact establish some kind of throughline?A question I've answered already- Braniac's powers change with bodies such that he explicitly had to get a new one because the old one was falling apart under his powers.
My problem with this line of reasoning as far as "up to that point in the comics" is that if you're saying it becomes clearer later is that it makes dubious using the idea of Doomsday thus resisting J'onn for all that much. Certainly it's fine for resisting Thanos, whose offensive telepathy is really only all that good in the grand scheme of things. But for anything beyond that? You get into problems that way. I'm not really arguing Thanos vs Doomsday telepathically here. I kiiinda… don't care about that. I'm noting overall an issue with taking Braniac's telepathy at a certain level of strength that seems to be implied for it here as difficult.Further, as to who is the stronger telepath? It's unclear enough for J'onn up to that point in the comics for Braniac being better to not come off as a big issue with a character like him switching bodies and with limited showings
Alright, let me put it like this, are you saying that taking later J'onn stuff into account, he becomes clearer as the better telepath? Similarly buddy has stuff like losing out to Maxima when not boosted. Certainly Maxima herself is no telepathic slouch, but it feels like thus there's some kind of line to look at there for having to ponder.Ok but I'd like to say compared to Thanos Braniac actually has better independent non telepath related TP feats for his performances against Telepaths to be justified
Part of his deal was being upgraded by being future Braniac.B-13 is nothing but a future Braniac, literally teaming up with current Braniac
Again, that points to that Braniac 13 is special circumstances Braniac when he's thus from far in the future or otherwise, from far in the future. Also there's a difference of sheer scale between a city and a universe. You'd basically have to be trying to argue that Braniac is a cosmic abstract at this point, at which point his having any trouble with Doomsday or really anyone would be absurd. (I'm going to note here that if you're going to refer to Thanos and note contrasting treatment, Thanos also has a couple of general showings that even within the problems of weighing stuff are ultimately too good for the guy in my own view, not telepathic ones, but they're still out there and problematic)Braniac's TP is amplified by his tech, ergo over time with his tech getting better his showings like turning the universe red in the Legion story from New Krypton with Braniac 5 saying stuff like "the universe is Braniac" Or the B13 stuff comes across as not so different from using mind control or spreading consciousness and such, B13 for instance was controlling a city through tech in a way that made it indistinguishable from mind control
Okay, let me try this another way: Braniac vs Xavier in a mind fight, how do you feel that would go? This is not a question that should really have a ton of bearing on Doomsday vs Thanos' telepathy. That's not what I'm dealing with here.
Last edited by Pendaran; 07-09-2019 at 09:43 AM.
Except even after getting that new body he just kept getting more powerful, even starting to control people while in a coma
https://i.postimg.cc/DZTCXVNY/IMG-20190710-000125.jpg
Yes but as seen in the scan above Braniac himself got more powerful from his Panic in the Sky daysAlright, let me put it like this, are you saying that taking later J'onn stuff into account, he becomes clearer as the better telepath?
Again, Braniac actually explicitly got more powerful post Maxima lossSimilarly buddy has stuff like losing out to Maxima when not boosted. Certainly Maxima herself is no telepathic slouch, but it feels like thus there's some kind of line to look at there for having to ponder.
My explanation for that would be Braniac always had the potential to become a universal level villain, and he's done so in at least 3 different continuities, and there's an in comic explanation for progressively getting more powerful and technologically more advancedAgain, that points to that Braniac 13 is special circumstances Braniac when he's thus from far in the future or otherwise, from far in the future. Also there's a difference of sheer scale between a city and a universe. You'd basically have to be trying to argue that Braniac is a cosmic abstract at this point, at which point his having any trouble with Doomsday or really anyone would be absurd.
Based on the last, ever increasing in power version of Braniac in DD's body that actually had TP as his main thing as opposed to technopathy? Braniac is more powerful because of the showing vs Jonn and controlling Doomsday which J'onn couldn'tOkay, let me try this another way: Braniac vs Xavier in a mind fight, how do you feel that would go?
Each of those times require specific circumstances is all the same the thing. That's not his baseline or anywhere near it in those continuities.My explanation for that would be Braniac always had the potential to become a universal level villain, and he's done so in at least 3 different continuities, and there's an in comic explanation for progressively getting more powerful and technologically more advanced
Okay, the problem with this again, you qualified that with "J'onn up until that point." So it puts a qualifier on "which J'onn couldn't". It's an issue that you are putting a lot on this one showing where you're also qualifying the other people in it.Based on the last, ever increasing in power version of Braniac in DD's body that actually had TP as his main thing as opposed to technopathy? Braniac is more powerful because of the showing vs Jonn and controlling Doomsday which J'onn couldn't
Okay, let me put that another way then, do you feel Maxima could no longer do what she otherwise did to him? That if they mind fought she'd lose?Again, Braniac actually explicitly got more powerful post Maxima loss