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  1. #31
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    The best way is to go from general to specific. First understand the principles. Then one can understand how it is working. Your questions should have been like this: What is this free will? And how is is it misused? Evil is not only human. Suffering also comes from nature. How does this 'misuse of free will' work here?

    I wish to make you think about what i posted. After that you ask more questions. And i will answer more. That is more useful then giving a long speech.

    Think about what i have said. God is not the cause of someone's suffering. My suffering is due to my own actions. An intelligent person can thus rectify one's behavior.
    You have not addressed the suffering of the people I talked about. They did not suffer because of their own actions, but the evil actions of others.

    You have not explained why God chooses the free will of the evil people over the suffering of their victims.

    How could the Jews rectify their being forced into Death Camps?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    You have not addressed the suffering of the people I talked about. They did not suffer because of their own actions, but the evil actions of others.

    You have not explained why God chooses the free will of the evil people over the suffering of their victims.

    How could the Jews rectify their being forced into Death Camps?
    First i will make this statement. 'As you sow, so you reap.' It can be said like this. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

    So, if do a pious activity. Something good. I will get the good result. If i commit sins. Bad activities. I will get the bad result. This is the law of karma. Subtle laws of nature governing actions and reactions of people.

    If i am enjoying today, its because i have piety in my account. And if i am suffering today its the result of my previous sin. As i have sown, so will i reap. Pious activities bring piety. Its recorded in a person's ledger. And in due course piety brings happiness. Similarly, impious or sinful activities are recorded as sin. In due course of time sin fructifies, bringing suffering with it.

    Try to think like this. If i commit a sin, its stored as a seed. In time the seed produces fruit. The fruit of suffering. When that happens i have to suffer for my sins. And after getting the suffering, its over. I have received the result/reaction of that action.

    Thus, the result of good work is good. Result of bad work is bad.

    Actions have reactions. Good work-piety-enjoyment. Bad work-sin-suffering. And while enjoying or suffering the results of my past actions, i keep acting. Depending on whether the actions are pious or sinful, i am laying the ground for my future.



    Naturally, the next question arises. Why do good or pious people suffer? And bad or impious people enjoy? We can see that. We don't see such a rhyme or reason in people's suffering or enjoyment. Sometimes really nice people have to suffer. And it looks like only bad people are enjoying.

    How does this law of karma work? Suffering and enjoyment appear to be at random.


    Answer. Its a wrong idea that we have only one life. Someone who is born is sure to die. Similarly, someone who dies is sure to take birth again. Just like a person changes one's body from childhood to youth and from youth to old age; a person changes one's body at death.

    That thing which pervades the body is called soul. It can't be burnt by fire or moistened by water or dried by wind, or cut by weapons. There never was a time when the soul did not exist. Nor will it ever cease to exist. Its primeval, eternal and ever existing. There was never a time when you and me or the people reading this post did not exist, we are existing now, and we will continue to exist in the future.

    Just as a person gives up old and worn out clothes, wearing new ones, a person gives up old and worn out bodies and takes new bodies.

    This is called self knowledge. Knowledge of the soul. We have to understand that we are not the bodies, but spirit souls. And due to the influence of material nature we are misidentifying ourselves as the body.


    In more simple words, the body is like a car. And soul is the driver. Its because of the driver a car is moving. Similarly, the body appears alive due to presence of the soul. When the soul leaves the body, we say that the person is dead. But factually, the person was never the body, just as the driver is separate from the car.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 07-05-2018 at 06:58 AM.

  3. #33
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    First i will make this statement. 'As you sow, so you reap.' It can be said like this. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

    So, if do a pious activity. Something good. I will get the good result. If i commit sins. Bad activities. I will get the bad result. This is the law of karma. Subtle laws of nature governing actions and reactions of people.

    If i am enjoying today, its because i have piety in my account. And if i am suffering today its the result of my previous sin. As i have sown, so will i reap. Pious activities bring piety. Its recorded in a person's ledger. And in due course piety brings happiness. Similarly, impious or sinful activities are recorded as sin. In due course of time sin fructifies, bringing suffering with it.

    Try to think like this. If i commit a sin, its stored as a seed. In time the seed produces fruits. The fruit of suffering. When that happens i have to suffer for my sins. And after getting the suffering, its over. I have received the result/reaction of that action.

    Thus, the result of good work is good. Result of bad work is bad.

    Actions have reactions. Good work-piety-enjoyment. Bad work-sin-suffering. During all this there are more actions. Depending on whether its pious or sinful, i am laying the ground for my future.
    That sounds an awful lot like you are blaming the Jews for the Holocaust. I hope I am mistaken. Could you clear that up?

    Are you also blaming the victims of serial killer John Wayne Gacy? (my other example)
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    That sounds an awful lot like you are blaming the Jews for the Holocaust. I hope I am mistaken. Could you clear that up?

    Are you also blaming the victims of serial killer John Wayne Gacy? (my other example)
    Please read my full post.

    And why will i blame someone? This is universal. This is the principle. No one escapes after doing something bad. A person may escape from the law of the government, but a person can't escape God's law.

    You think someone like Hitler can escape just by commiting suicide. (Btw suicide is a most grevious sin. No one has the right to take a life. Not even one's own).


    And what do you mean by free will of one person is more important then another? What do you understand by the term 'free will'?


    I hope you are now seeing that i have taken the discussion to another level. This is how 'atmavat sarva bhutesu' works. Considering others to be one's own self. One who is in knowledge does not see the body. Indian, American, Hindu, Christian, man, woman, dog, elephant, etc. are all external. We are not bodies but spirit souls. The learned person does not differentiate between Russian and Chinese, or rich and poor. 'Sama sarvesu bhutesu'. Sama means 'equal'. A learned person has equal vision.

    We are striving for equality. But on the platform of the body its not possible. But on the platform of the soul, universal brotherhood and equality follows naturally.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 07-05-2018 at 07:12 AM.

  5. #35
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Please read my full post.

    And why will i blame someone? This is universal. This is the principle. No one escapes after doing something bad. A person may escape from the law of the government, but a person can't escape God's law.
    Again, are you saying the Holocaust was God punishing the Jews for something they did?

    You think someone like Hitler can escape just by commiting suicide. (Btw suicide is a most grevious sin. No one has the right to take a life. Not even one's own).

    And what do you mean by free will of one person is more important then another? What do you understand by the term 'free will'?
    It is simple, if you say God allows evil to happen because he doesn't interfere with free will, then it follows he is putting the free will of the evil doers over the free will of their victims. The victims are not choosing to suffer and die. It is only the choices of those who do evil in these instances that God is not intervening in. it doesn't matter if Hitler is punished or not, God allowed him to kill 9 million innocent people.


    I hope you are now seeing that i have taken the discussion to another level. This is how 'atmavat sarva bhutesu' works. Considering others to be one's own self. One who is in knowledge does not see the body. Indian, American, Hindu, Christian, man, woman, dog, elephant, etc. are all external. We are not bodies but spirit souls. The learned person does not differentiate between Russian and Chinese, or rich and poor. 'Sama sarvesu bhutesu'. Sama means 'equal'. A learned person has equal vision.

    We are striving for equality. But on the platform of the body its not possible. But on the platform of the soul, universal brotherhood and equality follows naturally.
    Not another level, just another viewpoint. One must accept many precepts first, including the existence of a soul.
    Last edited by Kirby101; 07-05-2018 at 07:28 AM.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Again, are you saying the Holocaust was God punishing the Jews for something they did?
    If i say yes, then i am anti-semitic i suppose. Never did i condone Nazis, never will i. I feel sad for the people who suffered this. My condolences and prayers goes to them. I can't possibly imagine the kind of suffering they went through. And saying something like this would be offensive. Do you want me to do that?

    Am i here to discuss philosophy or disrespect people?

    It is simple, if you say God allows evil to happen because he doesn't interfere with free will, then it follows he is putting the free will of the evil doers over the free will of their victims. The victims are not choosing to suffer and die. It is only the choices of those who do evil in these instances that God is not intervening in. it doesn't matter if Hitler is punished or not, God allowed him to kill 9 million innocent people.
    Then you misunderstand free will. Free will means freedom to act. I can give someone all good instructions. But the person has the fredom to act as he chooses.

    Why are some citizens inside jail? They misused their freedom. Why do people suffer? They committed misdeeds. In this life or in previous lives. And those who are committing now will be punished for that in the future. In this life or in the future lives.

    And if you insist on Jews, then i guess you simply don't want to discuss with me. This applies to everyone. Suffering is not random. Its the result of previous sins: in present and past lives. According to this i can't say that i am sinless either. Then i will have to be free from all suffering. You will have to find someone who has no suffering.

    Not another level, just another viewpoint. One must accept many precepts first, including the existence of a soul.
    Sometimes something extraordinary looks non-different from the ordinary. Correct viewpoint may look like just any other viewpoint.

    Its easy to understand and accept that one is not the body. But its also impossible to understand. Impossible to understand for someone who is adamant. And honestly, someone who is adamant is a fool.

    1. I am giving a formula for universal equality. Not that we are United Nations and together we will kill the poor animals. No. Universal means all. Every living entity.

    2. How happy would i be if all of a sudden i cone to know that i had a hidden talent like playing a piano. I am a natural, and i can play amazingly without any practice. How happy would i be?

    Of course, i can explain how one can understand this if one wants to understand.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 07-05-2018 at 08:31 AM.

  7. #37
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Essentially, this all comes across as a natural (sometimes sad) course of events that people try to create a philosophical basis for that fits into their belief systems. In fact, no. The entire belief systems were constructed around explaining a natural course of events.
    Power with Girl is better.

  8. #38
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    If i say yes, then i am anti-semitic i suppose. Never did i condone Nazis, never will i. I feel sad for the people who suffered this. My condolences and prayers goes to them. I can't possibly imagine the kind of suffering they went through. And saying something like this would be offensive. Do you want me to do that?

    Am i here to discuss philosophy or disrespect people?



    Then you misunderstand free will. Free will means freedom to act. I can give someone all good instructions. But the person has the fredom to act as he chooses.

    Why are some citizens inside jail? They misused their freedom. Why do people suffer? They committed misdeeds. In this life or in previous lives. And those who are committing now will be punished for that in the future. In this life or in the future lives.

    And if you insist on Jews, then i guess you simply don't want to discuss with me. This applies to everyone. Suffering is not random. Its the result of previous sins: in present and past lives. According to this i can't say that i am sinless either. Then i will have to be free from all suffering. You will have to find someone who has no suffering.



    Sometimes something extraordinary looks non-different from the ordinary. Correct viewpoint may look like just any other viewpoint.

    Its easy to understand and accept that one is not the body. But its also impossible to understand. Impossible to understand for someone who is adamant. And honestly, someone who is adamant is a fool.

    1. I am giving a formula for universal equality. Not that we are United Nations and together we will kill the poor animals. No. Universal means all. Every living entity.

    2. How happy would i be if all of a sudden i cone to know that i had a hidden talent like playing a piano. I am a natural, and i can play amazingly without any practice. How happy would i be? And i am informing someone that he is eternal. Not only he but everyone.

    Of course, i can explain how one can understand this if one wants to understand.


    I understand your misgivings on talking about the Holocaust. And I am not trying to get you to say something anti-Semitic. This is more about God and why he allows evil. The Holocaust is an example of God allowing a great evil.

    So what you are saying is that God does not allow the innocent to suffer, they are not innocent and he is punishing them for a sin, in this life or previous one.

    Of course this does not work for the Christian concept of God and the soul, in which there are no earlier lives.

    But we would need a Christian to explain why the free will of some one evil is more important to God than the suffering of the innocent.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Essentially, this all comes across as a natural (sometimes sad) course of events that people try to create a philosophical basis for that fits into their belief systems. In fact, no. The entire belief systems were constructed around explaining a natural course of events.
    And this is your philosophy. That there is nothing more then matter. Since, we experience only matter, only matter exists.

    In India, there is something called a 'muni'. A philosopher. A person is not considered a muni unless one has not come out with a different philosophy. A philosopher comes and uses his mind and puts forward a philosophy. Another philosopher comes and uses his mind to come up with a separate philosophy. This is the way of philosophy. You are not considered a muni unless, you come up with a philosophy of your own.

    There is also something called 'sthitha dhir muni'. This muni has finished the process of philosophical speculation and has come to 'final' or 'ulimate' conclusion. Philosophy is essentially a search for truth. But what will you do when you do reach the truth?

    Here, truth is not in an ordinary sense. But rather knowing that truth the muni knows everything. Such a person is very rare.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 07-05-2018 at 09:02 AM.

  10. #40
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Are there instances where two or more muni, after 'sthitha dhir muni', come to completely different conclusions of what is true?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Are there instances where two or more muni, after 'sthitha dhir muni', come to completely different conclusions of what is true?
    Actually no. Sthita dhir muni's conclusion is one. This process of speculation actually takes many many births.

    Bahunam janmanam ante
    Jnanavan mam prapadyante
    Vasudevam sarvam iti
    Sa mahatma su durlabah

    [Bhagavad Gita 7.19]

    After many many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.


    Bhagavad Gita translates into 'Song of God'. This is God telling about Himself and all that is. The book is recorded by Vyasadeva. But the speaker is Krsna, also known as God. Those who are philosophers and learned persons keep speculating for many many lives. And finally, they come to Krsna. (Pronounced as Krish-na).

    Krsna is not a sectarian name. It means 'All Attractive'. Who is considered as attractive? Someone who is beautiful is considered as attractive. Someone who is strong also attracts people. Someone who is wise is also attractive. Someone who is rich also attracts people. Someone who is famous also attracts people. Some people have fans just because they are famous. And finally, if someone is renounced, that person is also attractive.


    These are opulences. Strength, beauty, wisdom, fame, wealth and renunciation. God posseses all six opulences at the same time and posseses them to an unlimited degree. Thus, God is All Attractive. And one name of God is Krsna.




    Of course, if someone is intelligent, one will not wait and accept right away, without waiting for many many births. Others will finally come to the same conclusion.

    If anyone is philosophically inclined, i can't recommend 'Bhagavad Gita As It Is' enough. In fact, anyone who wants to read something nice shall read it too.

    Bhagavad Gita is one book which is always fresh. One can read it everyday all throughout one's life and still feel it fresh. In CBR i see a good number of people bored with the same old thing. That is because matter is stale. But spirit is always fresh and new.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 07-05-2018 at 11:11 AM.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    I understand your misgivings on talking about the Holocaust. And I am not trying to get you to say something anti-Semitic. This is more about God and why he allows evil. The Holocaust is an example of God allowing a great evil.

    So what you are saying is that God does not allow the innocent to suffer, they are not innocent and he is punishing them for a sin, in this life or previous one.

    Of course this does not work for the Christian concept of God and the soul, in which there are no earlier lives.

    But we would need a Christian to explain why the free will of some one evil is more important to God than the suffering of the innocent.

    I am getting less and less time nowadays to visit CBR. So, i may post a reply after a long time. Excuse me for that.

    The logic of Epicurus is actually quite good. Its said that God is all good. But we see so much suffering in the world. If God is not capable of stopping this, how can you call that person God? And if God is allowing this much suffering there has to be an explanation.

    Bhagavad Gita is different from other scriptures in the sense, that this is the perfect theistic science, as the speaker is God Himself. Its standard is that one can find things which are found in other scriptures here. But one will find things here, which won't be found anywhere else.

    I accept the authority of Bhagavad Gita. At the same time i respect scriptures like The Holy Koran and The Holy Bible. I have mentioned before that they are speaking the same thing, but they give as much as the audience can digest.


    If you take this understanding as simply a theory, you will be hard pressed to find holes in it. You are free to try. It won't work. My system of getting knowledge is simply say what God says. We don't use words like, "I think", "In my opinion", etc. A child does not have to worry. The child will simply ask the father. "Father, what is this?" And the father says, "This is a table". And i say, "This is table". And i am correct. In short, its not speculation.

    This 'understanding' has been preserved through a chain of spiritual masters going all the way to God, the original spiritual master. The job of a spiritual master is to keep the knowledge intact while passing to the students. And the student in turn has to do the same.

    Fortunately, this disciplic succession is still intact. And anyone can take benefit from this. To ordinary people though this would look like just another system of philosophy.

    And there are lots of literature to study this philosophy of 'Krsna consciousness' seriously and scrutinizingly. 'Bhagavad Gita As It Is' is one of them. One can use one's intelligence and study them. Nothing is accepted blindly.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 07-10-2018 at 06:28 AM.

  13. #43
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Well, it's not as if theodicy hasn't been the subject of philosophical examinations for thousands of years.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Well, it's not as if theodicy hasn't been the subject of philosophical examinations for thousands of years.

    Of course, that is allowed. My point is that 'Krsna consciousness' has no room for speculation. The teachers of this philosophy keep the knowledge intact. As soon as one makes changes to it, the meaning is lost.

    And since, its perfect knowledge one is free to study it very scrutinizingly. Its most welcome. In fact, this is what i am encouraging. Read this. Ask questions to the ones who are trying to practice it sincerely.


    Doubt is one function of intelligence. That is necessary. Or else, one can be cheated. Krsna consciousness philosophy always encourages asking questions. The whole Bhagavad Gita is a series of questions and answers. Arjuna the great warrior, is in a sense the representative of the human race. And God keeps answering the questions posed by Arjuna, one after another.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 07-10-2018 at 07:13 AM.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Double post
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 07-10-2018 at 07:01 AM.

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