Victor Von Doom: Doctor Doom Appreciation 2019

[MichelleDiMera]

You gotta be careful with the Magneto thing because when Magneto turned after Uncanny 150, everything changed and that turn was set up by the greatest writer in Marvel history..that's why it became so mainstream in cartoons and of course the movies. Everybody got hooked.

After Unthinkable, after what was done to Valeria, it was hard to get back to those Doom tweener attributes. Which is why the relationship with him and Sue's daughter was always a great highlight..would he really put her at risk to get to his own ends? How far is too far?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

At the end of the day there aren't many great Magneto stories as compared to Doom stories.

Dr. Doom has:
- Fantastic Four Annual #2
- Fantastic Four #258
- Secret Wars 1984
- Triumph and Torment
- Books of Doom
- Emperor Doom

I am sure others can add but basically Doom has been protagonist of all-time great comics centering on him (with or without the Fantastic Four), whereas with Magneto, he's never really worked entirely and effectively on solo.

Magneto has no equivalent of Triumph and Torment. Magneto's best stories all center on his interactions with the X-Men or Xavier.

I remember people saying of Hugh Jackman before Logan that he was an example of a great actor in a great role who had yet to find his masterpiece (which Logan gave him). I think that's applicable to Magneto as a character in a way that isn't with Doom.

Of course Magneto is fortunate in that he's been adapted very well into cartoons and movies, where he's shown with a lot of shades and this hasn't happened yet with Victor.

[Iron Maiden]

You gotta be careful with the Magneto thing because when Magneto turned after Uncanny 150, everything changed and that turn was set up by the greatest writer in Marvel history..that's why it became so mainstream in cartoons and of course the movies. Everybody got hooked.

After Unthinkable, after what was done to Valeria, it was hard to get back to those Doom tweener attributes. Which is why the relationship with him and Sue's daughter was always a great highlight..would he really put her at risk to get to his own ends? How far is too far?

Well, I didn't get hooked. I never was that much of an X-Men fan after Byrne left the series. But the X-Men did have a good run as Marvel's best selling title. And as for who you are referrring to as the greatest writer in Marvel history, that should be prefaced by an "IMO". There's always going to those who would disagree with you.

Byrne was against the sudden transformation of Magneto into a hero which is probably why Claremont did it after Byrne left the title. There is really no build up for at all. Whereas with Doom, Stan and Jack did develop a back story for Doom in FF Annual #2 (published in 1963) that brings some pathos and genuine tragedy to the characterization. We find out that he is a Romani, an oppressed people in Europe. His father dies trying to protect him from being captured by Latverian soldiers who mostly likely would have taken them back either to prison or a death sentence. We see that a young Victor is capable of heroic acts and he becomes a bit of a revolutionary to lead the fight against his tribe's oppressors. Byrne quite correctly if crudely pointed out that Claremont's Magneto became a "half assed clone of Doctor Doom". Lacking a back story for many years, we see him take those important elements of Doom's origin....that of being an oppressed minority in Europe and the deaths of his parents due to this oppression that takes him down a bitter path.

The X-men encounter Magneto very early in the Uncanny X-Men run (issues 1 and 4) but there is no prior relationship with Professor X established. That really doesn't come until much later with Claremont. We know right off the bet that Reed, Ben and Victor knew each other from their days at the university. But at no point do we see that Charles is aware who Magneto is until much later. When Claremont does establish that Charles and Magneto knew each other prior to the formation of the X-Men, he does make it a far less adversarial relationship who later become deadly foes.


As for Magneto's heritage, we get no detail on that for almost 20 years later. I don't think that was Stan and Jack's intention with Magneto but then again they never really developed a back story on him. His ethnicity is undefined but if they had planned to make him Jewish, it was odd that they show him using soldiers where Kirby makes a clear visual reference to Nazis.

[comicscollector]

The new Marvels Epilogue story have Doctor Doom.
I won´t spoil the cameo to who had not read it yet,but i thought it was a cool cameo by Doctor Doom.

And i will be buying at least the first issue of the new Doctor Doom comic book.
Salvador Larroca being the artist is interesting.

[MichelleDiMera]

At the end of the day there aren't many great Magneto stories as compared to Doom stories.

Dr. Doom has:
- Fantastic Four Annual #2
- Fantastic Four #258
- Secret Wars 1984
- Triumph and Torment
- Books of Doom
- Emperor Doom

I am sure others can add but basically Doom has been protagonist of all-time great comics centering on him (with or without the Fantastic Four), whereas with Magneto, he's never really worked entirely and effectively on solo.

Magneto has no equivalent of Triumph and Torment. Magneto's best stories all center on his interactions with the X-Men or Xavier.

I remember people saying of Hugh Jackman before Logan that he was an example of a great actor in a great role who had yet to find his masterpiece (which Logan gave him). I think that's applicable to Magneto as a character in a way that isn't with Doom.

Of course Magneto is fortunate in that he's been adapted very well into cartoons and movies, where he's shown with a lot of shades and this hasn't happened yet with Victor.

Actually "I Magneto" and "A Fire In The Night" actually has translated to film and those are as legendary as any villain stories from DC or Marvel outright. We all love the Doom and Strange team up..legendary but so is how Magneto lost his first daughter since that basically is why he is who he is. Iconic story.

Magneto is the highest selling villain in marvel history...he isnt this popular for no reason. But beyond all that..Doom at his best needs and DESERVES to be presented on film like Magneto..hell, a even better representation. Latveria was never pushed on film. Doombots didn't get pushed. No Valeria backstory..no scene with his mother or how he took over Latveria. They always focus on him being petty over Reed when he has proven he is more brilliant and more accomplished. His time machine creations alone prove that.

If they can push Thanos like they did, then they can certainly give us a epic Doom display of greatness and show the audience why fear is for LESSER men.

[MichelleDiMera]

Well, I didn't get hooked. I never was that much of an X-Men fan after Byrne left the series. But the X-Men did have a good run as Marvel's best selling title. And as for who you are referrring to as the greatest writer in Marvel history, that should be prefaced by an "IMO". There's always going to those who would disagree with you.

Byrne was against the sudden transformation of Magneto into a hero which is probably why Claremont did it after Byrne left the title. There is really no build up for at all. Whereas with Doom, Stan and Jack did develop a back story for Doom in FF Annual #2 (published in 1963) that brings some pathos and genuine tragedy to the characterization. We find out that he is a Romani, an oppressed people in Europe. His father dies trying to protect him from being captured by Latverian soldiers who mostly likely would have taken them back either to prison or a death sentence. We see that a young Victor is capable of heroic acts and he becomes a bit of a revolutionary to lead the fight against his tribe's oppressors. Byrne quite correctly if crudely pointed out that Claremont's Magneto became a "half assed clone of Doctor Doom". Lacking a back story for many years, we see him take those important elements of Doom's origin....that of being an oppressed minority in Europe and the deaths of his parents due to this oppression that takes him down a bitter path.

The X-men encounter Magneto very early in the Uncanny X-Men run (issues 1 and 4) but there is no prior relationship with Professor X established. That really doesn't come until much later with Claremont. We know right off the bet that Reed, Ben and Victor knew each other from their days at the university. But at no point do we see that Charles is aware who Magneto is until much later. When Claremont does establish that Charles and Magneto knew each other prior to the formation of the X-Men, he does make it a far less adversarial relationship who later become deadly foes.


As for Magneto's heritage, we get no detail on that for almost 20 years later. I don't think that was Stan and Jack's intention with Magneto but then again they never really developed a back story on him. His ethnicity is undefined but if they had planned to make him Jewish, it was odd that they show him using soldiers where Kirby makes a clear visual reference to Nazis.

Claremont's greatness is practically undeniable. Turned them from being almost cancelled to pretty much saving Marvel comics...his stories are more iconic and bigger money makers than any Marvel writers to date. His presentation led to how that cartoon on Fox became a huge hit. Dark Phoenix story and Mutant genesis are bigger stories than anything from the Avengers to Hulk to Thor to Silver Surfer. Only Spider Man is on the same playing field and even that couldnt touch the last huge Claremont Magneto Acolytes story in 91 that sold 8 million and turned the X men into the saving grace of Marvel when every other title were barely getting by. So he is indeed on his own level as a comic giant with no real peer.

Claremont turned Magneto into a tweener because it was smart money after his backstory was developed..then they added Wanda and Pietro as his kids and Luna as his granddaughter. The reformed villain with the heroic kids..nice spin.

Magneto and Doom being similar in backstories? Not quite. Doom left it all to go to America and then they created the jealous angle with Reed when the experiment scarred his face and he blamed Reed on it.

Imagine Magneto being that way with Xavier..only thing remotely close was in the aforementioned X Men #1-3 story when he thought both Moira and Xavier tried to alter his mind and behavior when he was in their care as a child. Ultimately we find out it was just Moira playing god and trying to "correct" Magneto.

[Iron Maiden]

Claremont's greatness is practically undeniable. Turned them from being almost cancelled to pretty much saving Marvel comics...his stories are more iconic and bigger money makers than any Marvel writers to date. His presentation led to how that cartoon on Fox became a huge hit. Dark Phoenix story and Mutant genesis are bigger stories than anything from the Avengers to Hulk to Thor to Silver Surfer. Only Spider Man is on the same playing field and even that couldnt touch the last huge Claremont Magneto Acolytes story in 91 that sold 8 million and turned the X men into the saving grace of Marvel when every other title were barely getting by. So he is indeed on his own level as a comic giant with no real peer.

Claremont turned Magneto into a tweener because it was smart money after his backstory was developed..then they added Wanda and Pietro as his kids and Luna as his granddaughter. The reformed villain with the heroic kids..nice spin.

Magneto and Doom being similar in backstories? Not quite. Doom left it all to go to America and then they created the jealous angle with Reed when the experiment scarred his face and he blamed Reed on it.

Imagine Magneto being that way with Xavier..only thing remotely close was in the aforementioned X Men #1-3 story when he thought both Moira and Xavier tried to alter his mind and behavior when he was in their care as a child. Ultimately we find out it was just Moira playing god and trying to "correct" Magneto.

Just to correct you: The X-Men did not save Marvel comics in that era of junk bond financing, etc. The situation was far more complicated than that and was covered in a book some years back. I've read some of the details on that era. What really saved them is during that crisis is someone rescued Marvel from bankruptcy and that was Ike Perlmutter (who is still on the board today) and Avi Arad. Another thing they did was to sell some of the titles they thought would be the most valuable to the film industry. So they picked ones that they thought would be the most valuable like Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, X-Men, Daredevil, Hulk, etc. You should read the book, Marvel: The Untold Story for the details. It's very interesting. But to say the X-Men alone pulled them out of bankruptcy is false. They were going under for different reasons that go back to the time when they were owned by Ron Perelman and the whole junk bond era on Wall Street. This article goes over it pretty well. It was an era of speculation and some fans were buying multiple copies of the same comic on the speculation that they could sell some on the secondary market and make lots of money. It's still going on today with variant covers. Look at the big number that some #1 titles get with variants. Now tell me how many of those continue with that same number in the following months when there are no variants. They are speculating on making money of the uniqueness of the covers and even that is fairly risky IMO.

As for those X-Men sales you mention, it's widely known that in that speculator era of comic books, a lot of readers were buying multiple copies of issues. When that bubble burst, it lend to the dire financial situation Marvel and the comics industry in general found themselves in. As noted in the article, by 1993 sales tumbled by 70 percent and it put some retailers out of business and Marvel as a company was endangered, as I described above.

As for moneymakers, I think it likely that you may want to remember a lot of the success that Todd McFarlane had with Spider-Man, which enabled him to leave Marvel. I think when you look at the macro version of things, going back to the 1960s, Spider-Man has been their gold mine. Syndicated newspaper column that has been going on for decades, successful cartoons, merchandising of toys, apparel, etc. Claremont has not found much success outside of his Marvel stuff. His X-Men run is one of the most popular but sales were juiced up by the speculator era of comic book sales of the 1990s. So there is no direct correlation between sales and actual number of readers.


And you are right that the relationships of Reed/Victor and Charles/Eric (or whatever his real name is) are different. But the point is that Claremont added a prior relationship much, much later that was never indicated before. We get a Reed/Victor connection right off the bat in FF #5.

[Iron Maiden]

The new Marvels Epilogue story have Doctor Doom.
I won´t spoil the cameo to who had not read it yet,but i thought it was a cool cameo by Doctor Doom.

And i will be buying at least the first issue of the new Doctor Doom comic book.
Salvador Larroca being the artist is interesting.

Can't wait for it myself. I'm glad that the release schedule has it for early October and not the end of the month.

BTW, I didn't see that Doctor Doom cameo but I just thumbed through it without buying. You do mean Marvels Epilogue #1, right?

Meanwhile, Runaways #23 is out this week too. Looks interesting since Doombot's personality has been wiped and he thinks he really is Doom. I alway look forward to his appearances and this is an enjoyable series on its own. Rainbow Rowell is a very talented writer.

[MichelleDiMera]

Just to correct you: The X-Men did not save Marvel comics in that era of junk bond financing, etc. The situation was far more complicated than that and was covered in a book some years back. I've read some of the details on that era. What really saved them is during that crisis is someone rescued Marvel from bankruptcy and that was Ike Perlmutter (who is still on the board today) and Avi Arad. Another thing they did was to sell some of the titles they thought would be the most valuable to the film industry. So they picked ones that they thought would be the most valuable like Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, X-Men, Daredevil, Hulk, etc. You should read the book, Marvel: The Untold Story for the details. It's very interesting. But to say the X-Men alone pulled them out of bankruptcy is false. They were going under for different reasons that go back to the time when they were owned by Ron Perelman and the whole junk bond era on Wall Street. This article goes over it pretty well. It was an era of speculation and some fans were buying multiple copies of the same comic on the speculation that they could sell some on the secondary market and make lots of money. It's still going on today with variant covers. Look at the big number that some #1 titles get with variants. Now tell me how many of those continue with that same number in the following months when there are no variants. They are speculating on making money of the uniqueness of the covers and even that is fairly risky IMO.

As for those X-Men sales you mention, it's widely known that in that speculator era of comic books, a lot of readers were buying multiple copies of issues. When that bubble burst, it lend to the dire financial situation Marvel and the comics industry in general found themselves in. As noted in the article, by 1993 sales tumbled by 70 percent and it put some retailers out of business and Marvel as a company was endangered, as I described above.

As for moneymakers, I think it likely that you may want to remember a lot of the success that Todd McFarlane had with Spider-Man, which enabled him to leave Marvel. I think when you look at the macro version of things, going back to the 1960s, Spider-Man has been their gold mine. Syndicated newspaper column that has been going on for decades, successful cartoons, merchandising of toys, apparel, etc. Claremont has not found much success outside of his Marvel stuff. His X-Men run is one of the most popular but sales were juiced up by the speculator era of comic book sales of the 1990s. So there is no direct correlation between sales and actual number of readers.


And you are right that the relationships of Reed/Victor and Charles/Eric (or whatever his real name is) are different. But the point is that Claremont added a prior relationship much, much later that was never indicated before. We get a Reed/Victor connection right off the bat in FF #5.

I didnt mean to say the X men saved Marvel from bankruptcy...not that situation. I meant when Batman and Superman were on top..in the films in the 80s heading into the 90s...the Avengers, FF, Hulk...they weren't cutting it. Claremont turned the X men into a monster and that led to the Fox X men show and eventually the 2000 movie...which is where the whole centerpoint of the MCU even got an idea from. No one was close on the impact Claremont made..not Frank Miller...none of them. The 1975-1991 run turned them into the kings of the industry. Marvel screwed up to the point they went bankrupt from that kind of momentum...I mean by mid 95, you had most of the top 10 sellers as X titles. Nate Grey's book was in the top 5 in 95..
consistently. Lol. That's wild.

I dont understand the issue with a backstory being added later. Hell, Sinister and Apocalypse had no real names or history for years...neither did Joker. The difference with Magneto is that he was more compelling and charismatic. That takes away nothing from Victor Von Doom..because at his best, written correctly? Nothing can touch a great Doom story. Alot of Doom fans dont like Unthinkable but I love #499 when he did the speech on Reed while he was locked up in that room. It was one of the greatest dressing downs of the era...the so called "bad guy" had won in dominant fashion and Reed could do nothing but lose. Then it got silly with Strange basically bailing him out.

[Biclopcicle]

Actually "I Magneto" and "A Fire In The Night" actually has translated to film and those are as legendary as any villain stories from DC or Marvel outright. We all love the Doom and Strange team up..legendary but so is how Magneto lost his first daughter since that basically is why he is who he is. Iconic story.

Magneto is the highest selling villain in marvel history...he isnt this popular for no reason. But beyond all that..Doom at his best needs and DESERVES to be presented on film like Magneto..hell, a even better representation. Latveria was never pushed on film. Doombots didn't get pushed. No Valeria backstory..no scene with his mother or how he took over Latveria. They always focus on him being petty over Reed when he has proven he is more brilliant and more accomplished. His time machine creations alone prove that.

If they can push Thanos like they did, then they can certainly give us a epic Doom display of greatness and show the audience why fear is for LESSER men.

I don't know how they haven't gotten Doom right on film....what if Tony Stark had all that tech without needing the rich powerful dad...and he used it to overtake his motherland from usurpers (eastern Bloc nation vs Russia, anyone?). Oh and by the way, he was secretly studying magic on his own and rivals Strange's abilities.

Throw in a Namor Team-Up. Soooo easy. I think for the new Fantastic Four movie, (especially since they've already introduced BP), Namor should be the antagonist. Then bring in Doom with a team-up

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I don't know how they haven't gotten Doom right on film....

It's a hard part to cast. You need an actor with a commanding body language and vocal performance to play a character whose face is covered by a metal mask for most of the action. You kind of need to look at Gary Oldman's Mason Verger in Hannibal where he's buried in makeup, or alternatively Edward Norton in Kingdom of Heaven, where his King Baldwin is covered with a mask for every scene. Whereas with Magneto, sure he wears a helmet and all, but the helmet shows his face, his eyes nose, and teeth. So it's easier to humanize him.

As it is superhero movies suffer from a disease of "face time". Where half the time you don't have actors wearing masks or showing too much of their faces. It's one of the problems with Spider-Man movies where every movie after the first one gives a scene showing the actor without a mask in a way that beggars disbelief, and in the MCU movies always show Spider-Man without mask in the poster.

I think ideally if you need to do Doom to set up Secret Wars you need to do a solo Doom movie, and to do that you need a really big name actor. I am talking Leonardo Dicaprio or maybe Adam Driver, who would want a lot of screen time and a lot of meat and chaff to play such a character.

...what if Tony Stark had all that tech without needing the rich powerful dad...and he used it to overtake his motherland from usurpers (eastern Bloc nation vs Russia, anyone?). Oh and by the way, he was secretly studying magic on his own and rivals Strange's abilities.

Remember that Iron Man was a pretty hard movie to get right for a long time too. It seems logical now, but it wasn't before. The logic of superhero movies until the MCU was that the first movie always showed the greatest and best villain, at least when you are doing the movie the first time. Likewise, nobody thought you could go too comic-book, i.e. bringing in sorcery, space aliens, and time travel and so on. So whenever they did the Four, they didn't put the Fantastic against Mole Man (like in their first comic) or The Puppetmaster or a decent starter villain against whom the FF can establish their team dynamic and overall situation, so that you could use the second movie to really pull focus on the villain the way that The Dark Knight, after getting Batman's origin right, gave Joker his own damn movie.

[comicscollector]

Can't wait for it myself. I'm glad that the release schedule has it for early October and not the end of the month.

BTW, I didn't see that Doctor Doom cameo but I just thumbed through it without buying. You do mean Marvels Epilogue #1, right?

Meanwhile, Runaways #23 is out this week too. Looks interesting since Doombot's personality has been wiped and he thinks he really is Doom. I alway look forward to his appearances and this is an enjoyable series on its own. Rainbow Rowell is a very talented writer.

Doctor Doom have a cameo in Marvels.Epilogue#1 by Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross in the first pages.
I think it´s a interesting cameo by Doctor Doom.

Salvador Larroca being the artist of the new Doctor Doom comic book was cool,he illustrated Iron Man and Darth Vader so i would say the new comic book will have the robots and armor of Doctor Doom quite well illustrated.I think the artist was very well choosen for the comic book.

[Biclopcicle]

It's a hard part to cast. You need an actor with a commanding body language and vocal performance to play a character whose face is covered by a metal mask for most of the action. You kind of need to look at Gary Oldman's Mason Verger in Hannibal where he's buried in makeup, or alternatively Edward Norton in Kingdom of Heaven, where his King Baldwin is covered with a mask for every scene. Whereas with Magneto, sure he wears a helmet and all, but the helmet shows his face, his eyes nose, and teeth. So it's easier to humanize him.

As it is superhero movies suffer from a disease of "face time". Where half the time you don't have actors wearing masks or showing too much of their faces. It's one of the problems with Spider-Man movies where every movie after the first one gives a scene showing the actor without a mask in a way that beggars disbelief, and in the MCU movies always show Spider-Man without mask in the poster.

I think ideally if you need to do Doom to set up Secret Wars you need to do a solo Doom movie, and to do that you need a really big name actor. I am talking Leonardo Dicaprio or maybe Adam Driver, who would want a lot of screen time and a lot of meat and chaff to play such a character.



Remember that Iron Man was a pretty hard movie to get right for a long time too. It seems logical now, but it wasn't before. The logic of superhero movies until the MCU was that the first movie always showed the greatest and best villain, at least when you are doing the movie the first time. Likewise, nobody thought you could go too comic-book, i.e. bringing in sorcery, space aliens, and time travel and so on. So whenever they did the Four, they didn't put the Fantastic against Mole Man (like in their first comic) or The Puppetmaster or a decent starter villain against whom the FF can establish their team dynamic and overall situation, so that you could use the second movie to really pull focus on the villain the way that The Dark Knight, after getting Batman's origin right, gave Joker his own damn movie.

But that's my point, these are all self-imposed limitations. You hear all the time how Hollywood execs meddle in the creative aspect of the moviemaking. I think the ones who are not fans of the source material tend to shoot themselves in the foot a lot. But there's really no reason for it and I don't understand why you would want to produce a property that is popular and then take away the elements that made it such

[Iron Maiden]

Doctor Doom have a cameo in Marvels.Epilogue#1 by Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross in the first pages.
I think it´s a interesting cameo by Doctor Doom.

Salvador Larroca being the artist of the new Doctor Doom comic book was cool,he illustrated Iron Man and Darth Vader so i would say the new comic book will have the robots and armor of Doctor Doom quite well illustrated.I think the artist was very well choosen for the comic book.

Ah, I went and bought the digital version of Marvels Epilogue #1 and now I see what you meant. I won't spoil it but it certainly is .... unusual. And I think it's an homage to similar appearance that was X-Men #98 by Dave Cockrum at the same location.

I agree that LaRocca is a good choice and I do like the style he used back in the days when he was doing the Fantastic Four . I took a peek at some of his work on the Star Wars titles and it does look pretty good except it sometimes looks a bit stiff at times.

[Doombot]

It's a hard part to cast. You need an actor with a commanding body language and vocal performance to play a character whose face is covered by a metal mask for most of the action. You kind of need to look at Gary Oldman's Mason Verger in Hannibal where he's buried in makeup, or alternatively Edward Norton in Kingdom of Heaven, where his King Baldwin is covered with a mask for every scene. Whereas with Magneto, sure he wears a helmet and all, but the helmet shows his face, his eyes nose, and teeth. So it's easier to humanize him.

As it is superhero movies suffer from a disease of "face time". Where half the time you don't have actors wearing masks or showing too much of their faces. It's one of the problems with Spider-Man movies where every movie after the first one gives a scene showing the actor without a mask in a way that beggars disbelief, and in the MCU movies always show Spider-Man without mask in the poster.

I think ideally if you need to do Doom to set up Secret Wars you need to do a solo Doom movie, and to do that you need a really big name actor. I am talking Leonardo Dicaprio or maybe Adam Driver, who would want a lot of screen time and a lot of meat and chaff to play such a character.

The simple answer to this is to NOT cast a big name Hollywood actor for Doom. There's no reason you should have to do this. Most actors are all about facetime on screen, many even having it in their contracts. The solution to this is the Darth Vader method. You cast an actor who has a commanding presence, a good physical actor. Then you also cast a truly great voice actor. This removes the problem of the Hollywood diva not getting their face on screen. Keep Doom's mystique by not showing his face, which is one of the reasons he's been so popular for so long. Everyone used to always wonder what he looked like.