What do you like/dislike about Krakoa? (As a concept)

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

No because bigotry is learned and he’s being enveloped in mutant culture, his mom’s even a mutant.

Crimes against mutants hardly get dealt with but we see how Xavier is able to bypass that with all mutants being granted diplomatic immunity by their birthright to Krakoa. Crimes against humanity are definitely still upheld in the regular world. I’m sure even these very situational instances that leeway can be made but that’s vastly different than just family coming over to live just because they miss their mutant relatives. Those mutants’ survivability is determined on their connections to their human carers, and that’s something I’m sure most of the Council will agree must happen because mutsnt lives need to be insured.

But you yourself said; mutants who have had bad experiences with humans won't like the idea of another human, even an innocent one, wandering about the island? Even if his mother's a mutant, how can we be sure Shogo is truly 'trust-worthy' in this context? I'm curious to hear your reasoning?

And, yes, that is a good point, the council would consider the mutant's survivability in regards to their human carers: But what if their survivability can be ensured without them? What if it's simply a case of, like in the case of many developmental disorders, they would survive without them but would not be happy? They would not thrive, in a sense?

[spirit2011]

I still don't understand how Krakoa is so pivotal to this Hickman era, when the last I recall, the X-Men threw it into space(and I never understood the Kid Krakoa thing). Also, didn't it gain sentience in the WW2 era nuclear testing? How is it thousands of years old with this elaborate magical history?

It is called retcon. Johns i s specialist on them

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

It is called retcon. Johns i s specialist on them

Here's another interesting question I feel might be worth addressing: How do we feel about retcons? How does that affect our enjoyment of what's being put in front of us? Especially with one so big in regards to Moira?

[Tycon]

But you yourself said; mutants who have had bad experiences with humans won't like the idea of another human, even an innocent one, wandering about the island? Even if his mother's a mutant, how can we be sure Shogo is truly 'trust-worthy' in this context? I'm curious to hear your reasoning?

And, yes, that is a good point, the council would consider the mutant's survivability in regards to their human carers: But what if their survivability can be ensured without them? What if it's simply a case of, like in the case of many developmental disorders, they would survive without them but would not be happy? They would not thrive, in a sense?

No, I said “many other mutants wouldn’t feel safe if some random humans promised safety...” Emphasis on random. The child is growing up on the island, what exactly is there to fear if no anti-mutant sentiment is indoctrinated on them?

Then I’m sure they can help them on the island. We don’t know what the Council would decide in these hypotheticals but I’m pretty sure they can just stay on Earth if just finding a mutant caretaker is so bad. If there’s any hate crime or fatality, then the perpetrator would have to answer to Krakoa.

[spirit2011]

Oh I definitely agree with that; and, because of the characterisation issues would you say the new environment feels all the more of an issue? Like, do you think if the change were less drastic then, perhaps, the characterisation issues wouldn't be much of a problem? Or, say, if you were maybe able to hear more of the characters' voices in a familiar manner, then the transition might have been easier? Do you think that would have made Krakoa feel more at-home for them?

I think the location would help the characterization, but isn't really a big and/or decisisve factor. I think they are part of the same problem, things happened too fast, They stoped to get development for where the characters are, same happened with locations. it just clashed all together.
Yeah I think a more familiar voice for character would have helped a lot

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

No, I said “many other mutants wouldn’t feel safe if some random humans promised safety...” Emphasis on random. The child is growing up on the island, what exactly is there to fear if no anti-mutant sentiment is indoctrinated on them?

Then I’m sure they can help them on the island. We don’t know what the Council would decide in these hypotheticals but I’m pretty sure they can just stay on Earth if just finding a mutant caretaker is so bad. If there’s any hate crime or fatality, then the perpetrator would have to answer to Krakoa.

But, in the context of those families, they wouldn't be random humans; they are their families, much like Shogo is to Jubilee. What about a slightly older child adopted by mutants, would the same logic be applied? But to clarify, I understand what you're saying and yes, we know this logically, but trauma can leave a lasting impact; are we sure that everyone see's it like that? That Shogo is truly 'pure' and can be separated from the perpetrators of violence in some mutant's eyes?

Would that work though; because though the perpetrators of violence have committed a crime against mutants, they are still humans and presumably on human soil when it occurred. Would it not be the responsibility of the humans to take care of that? If so, again, what guarantees does the family have that their mutant loved one will be safe with them? Would it be a case of Krakoa just having to post a 24/7 guard outside the house?

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I think the location would help the characterization, but isn't really a big and/or decisisve factor. I think they are part of the same problem, things happened too fast, They stoped to get development for where the characters are, same happened with locations. it just clashed all together.
Yeah I think a more familiar voice for character would have helped a lot

So it's a mix of everything, really, that makes this more of an artificial experience for you? Say if the narrative had been paced a bit less drastically, might that have helped as well?

[Zelena]

Which is another interesting question, I find: Do you think the X-Men come across as hypocritical based on how, in real life, we don't accept such approaches or measures? Why do you think other readers view that differently?

Conversely, to anyone who wants to answer: Why is it different? Please, for the benefit of those (like myself) who are struggling to understand?

I don't think that only the persecutions and the horrible things that happened to mutants explain this lack of criticism of traits what wouldn't be considered as good in other groups of people.

During years, we have seen seen stories from X-men and mutants's point of view. Sometimes, a building fell in one of those super-hero fightings and innocent people are killed. But never the focus is on that. During one of Brian Braddock's battles, a little kid has been killed. But this tragedy has been lived from Brian Braddock's point of view. We are just "boring people without super-powers", uninteresting from a writer's point of view. X-men readers completely identified themselves with the X-men, the persecuted mutants, the ones who are the heroes of the story, no matter what they do because like myself when they read current X-men stories, they think also about the characters they loved from old stories.

I'm an intermittent reader, I read X-men comics in my childhood and a little bit recently. I conserve an affection for the characters I liked from old stories but I don't see them in the current run. Well, I don't know, any kind of person who utters : "I'm superior" irritates me. I grew up with an older brother and he had no problem to use his strength on me when he was a child. He became more civilized later…

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I don't think that only the persecutions and the horrible things that happened to mutants explain this lack of criticism of traits what wouldn't be considered as good in other groups of people.

During years, we have seen seen stories from X-men and mutants's point of view. Sometimes, a building fell in one of those super-hero fightings and innocent people are killed. But never the focus is on that. During one of Brian Braddock's battles, a little kid has been killed. But this tragedy has been lived from Brian Braddock's point of view. We are just "boring people without super-powers", uninteresting from a writer's point of view. X-men readers completely identified themselves with the X-men, the persecuted mutants, the ones who are the heroes of the story, no matter what they do because like myself when they read current X-men stories, they think also about the characters they loved from old stories.

I'm an intermittent reader, I read X-men comics in my childhood and a little bit recently. I conserve an affection for the characters I liked from old stories but I don't see them in the current run. Well, I don't know, any kind of person who utters : "I'm superior" irritates me. I grew up with an older brother and he had no problem to use his strength on me when he was a child. He became more civilized later…

I see what you mean: the X-Men narrative really does invite a lot of projection and identification with this characters--that's part of the reason I can't let go, to be honest. In that respect, you'd say a portion of the fandom feels like they're being more lenient, though, because of how they identify and project as such? They find it easier to, perhaps, regard faceless humans as faceless humans? Keep them at a certain distance, perhaps, without considering how they fall in relation to other human-type heroes?

Also, because it's a really fascinating thing: Why do you think some fans are able to see the classic characters from those old stories and hear their voices while others aren't, despite the same level of devotion from all? (Because, let's face it, that's why we're here.)

And that's another point that's important to consider: What kinds of events influence our interpretation of the text?

Do you believe there's only one 'correct' context to read these stories in? As in, from what we see on page, or is it important to draw from the past narratives and consider their contradictions? And even why it's being contradicted as such?

[JTFSXX]

I love the way that this new context raises so many interesting questions about the mission/identity of the X-Men. I also love the interplay of characters who were once enemies and have found that they are bound to each other in a profound way. I'm not crazy about the resurrection bit....while I get why it had to be in order for this whole concept, and I certainly am glad to have many characters back, it just feels like the stakes have been lowered. What is life without death? Incomplete. I have a feeling/hope that this aspect of the new Krakoan reality is going to have some interesting side effects or ramifications that will make it less desirable.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I love the way that this new context raises so many interesting questions about the mission/identity of the X-Men. I also love the interplay of characters who were once enemies and have found that they are bound to each other in a profound way. I'm not crazy about the resurrection bit....while I get why it had to be in order for this whole concept, and I certainly am glad to have many characters back, it just feels like the stakes have been lowered. What is life without death? Incomplete. I have a feeling/hope that this aspect of the new Krakoan reality is going to have some interesting side effects or ramifications that will make it less desirable.

Ah now see, this is an interesting position: So you're the type of reader who finds the uncertainty exciting? Why is that? Do your concerns not get in the way of your enjoyment say, in regards to favourite characters? Or are your favourites being played out well, in your opinion and, if so, how so?

Also, why do you feel that death is an integral stake to need to preserve? Especially considering how characters tend to rise and fall like Jesus on a bungee? (Ok sorry, bad joke, but still!)

And, because it's an important question to ask: What speaks as most hopeful to you about the Krakoan era? Where/how do you see it? Is there any way readers who might not be able to right now find a manner to identify it?

[Tycon]

But, in the context of those families, they wouldn't be random humans; they are their families, much like Shogo is to Jubilee. What about a slightly older child adopted by mutants, would the same logic be applied? But to clarify, I understand what you're saying and yes, we know this logically, but trauma can leave a lasting impact; are we sure that everyone see's it like that? That Shogo is truly 'pure' and can be separated from the perpetrators of violence in some mutant's eyes?

Would that work though; because though the perpetrators of violence have committed a crime against mutants, they are still humans and presumably on human soil when it occurred. Would it not be the responsibility of the humans to take care of that? If so, again, what guarantees does the family have that their mutant loved one will be safe with them? Would it be a case of Krakoa just having to post a 24/7 guard outside the house?

And in the context of the nation of Krakoa, they would be random. They’re just gonna need to learn to grow up and make their own life if they’re gonna move to Krakoa. And they are making that choice. So for them to move to the mutant nation of Krakoa only to compromise the rules is selfish. Just keep a gate close to your house if you wanna live with your family but don’t make mutants uneasy during an already tense time between humans and mutants. Also I don’t know what other answer you’re looking for about Shogo so I’m just gonna say this: He. Is. A. Damn. Baby. Mutants already accept him on the island, he can barely speak. Trauma manifests in many ways but blaming a baby isn’t an acceptable response. A person who depends on a mutant mother to literally survive. Who is really gonna think about how they were tortured by General Callahan then turn around and blame Shogo? I’ll answer that so we don’t go down another rabbit hole: someone who needs therapy.

But they are attacking citizens who have diplomatic immunity. That is an attack against the nation the granted them those immunities and thus Krakoa would be involved if there was ever a criminal case (hell, probably even a civil case). Of course, diplomatic immunity isn’t always respected but this is Krakoa that we’re talking about. There will be a response. So their safety isn’t guaranteed. That’s the cost of choosing to live there instead of going to Krakoa.

[spirit2011]

So it's a mix of everything, really, that makes this more of an artificial experience for you? Say if the narrative had been paced a bit less drastically, might that have helped as well?

The problem is that this isn't even fast paced, Hickman still doing lots of world building. It i stha tit jumped from 0 to 100. It is like seeing a man and a woman saying hi and the next we see they are married with kids already.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

The problem is that this isn't even fast paced, Hickman still doing lots of world building. It i stha tit jumped from 0 to 100. It is like seeing a man and a woman saying hi and the next we see they are married with kids already.

Ah, yes, let's be honest; poor plotted pacing has been the downfall of many a work. So you'd say you find it pretty disproportionate, especially considering what's been laid out? Do you feel it was perhaps, a rushed entry in that respect? And that makes it feel, perhaps, a bit less able for you to truly invest?

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

And in the context of the nation of Krakoa, they would be random. They’re just gonna need to learn to grow up and make their own life if they’re gonna move to Krakoa. And they are making that choice. So for them to move to the mutant nation of Krakoa only to compromise the rules is selfish. Just keep a gate close to your house if you wanna live with your family but don’t make mutants uneasy during an already tense time between humans and mutants. Also I don’t know what other answer you’re looking for about Shogo so I’m just gonna say this: He. Is. A. Damn. Baby. Mutants already accept him on the island, he can barely speak. Trauma manifests in many ways but blaming a baby isn’t an acceptable response. A person who depends on a mutant mother to literally survive. Who is really gonna think about how they were tortured by General Callahan then turn around and blame Shogo? I’ll answer that so we don’t go down another rabbit hole: someone who needs therapy.

But they are attacking citizens who have diplomatic immunity. That is an attack against the nation the granted them those immunities and thus Krakoa would be involved if there was ever a criminal case (hell, probably even a civil case). Of course, diplomatic immunity isn’t always respected but this is Krakoa that we’re talking about. There will be a response. So their safety isn’t guaranteed. That’s the cost of choosing to live there instead of going to Krakoa.

But so is Shogo. He's a random human to anyone outside to those who know him. Is Jubilee compromising the rules in a similar fashion? Is she being selfish for not giving Shogo up to other humans? He is a baby, yes, and you're right, hatred of him isn't an acceptable response but someone may have problems separating him from the perpetrators responsible for their trauma. They do need therapy, but won't Shogo's presence impede that if, as you say, any random human can come to wander about Krakoa? And then, another point; you say those who want to stay with their family should 'grow up and make their own life'--what if they're only a child? And they don't want to go to Krakoa, much like any child might not want to move to a foreign boarding school? And, again, it isn't safe for them to remain at home because they and their human family will be killed? Are they being selfish? (And, why?)

So you view Krakoa as automatically superior in its justice system, then? Even if the family were attacked on the way to Krakoa with their disabled mutant loved one? Perhaps even one who can't technically consent and 'choose'? (Again, why?)