Who has killed more innocents throughout the years: Namor or Batroc?

[Abe]

Where was Batroc during Secret Wars? Can we be sure he wasn't behind the whole thing? I think not!

It makes sense, really! Batroc is from Marseille, so he has to be an expert in both savate and PETANQUE !

Here's the final on the world championships in Mareseille last year. The sport really starts at 5:00.



In the last issue of Avengers we saw Elders of the universe playing ping pong with cosmic consequences. The incursions sure looks like a cosmic pétanque game!

[The Ray]

How many of those generals were superheroes? The Avengers is a superhero team.

Superheroes don't kill civilians. We call those "supervillains".

[Ravin' Ray]

Just found this minutes ago, a nice summary of the Sue-Namor dynamic.

https://arousinggrammar.com/2012/07/...namor-and-sue/

[Reviresco]

Superheroes don't kill civilians. We call those "supervillains".

Which again, doesn't answer the question I asked.

There are Avengers and superheroes that have killed civilians. It's called modern superhero comics. Or are you only concerned about killing Avengers whose association can make Cap and Sue look bad?

[Reviresco]

you determine the relevancy of the question? good to know. Namor had a choice. organize a bunch of killers to take innocent lives; to temporarily stave off death. or let the incursion happen. you folks who support Namor's actions clearly don't see him as a noble individual. did you guys not see the end of the Dark Knight? that prisoner demonstrated more bravery than Namor.




^ahead of the curve

DC movie and character. Isn't relevant or on topic.

if you saw it, you know that he would have prayed on it (as if he'd have an option in this ridiculous scenario); making the same choice. the point is that he had faith. given the importance of the 616, maybe some of the "heroes" should have had some faith. how often have these characters died; only to return, later?

How many of Namor's Atlanteans have died and returned? Almost none of them. Namor isn't concerned about HIS death -- as he made clear in the book repeatedly, he understands he's 'dead' already, by his actions. He's a king who is concerned about the deaths of TWO entire universes.

the knowledge that they were working with is that they could be blown up if they didn't blow up the other ship. and Joker very much was going to detonate one of the ship; if neither side chose. the crux of the choices made is that they preferred the nobility of death to the murder of others. Namor was motivated by fear and desperation. Doom said as much. the Illuminati, Namor included, could have just made the other universes aware of the situation. instead, they took their insider knowledge and went about planning the murder of other worlds. and Namor went the furthest down that dark hole.

Really? You are going to quote Dr. Doom to support your opinion? The 'nobility of death???' That wasn't even the choice before Namor.

The whole argument about letting anyone know about the Incursions was discussed repeatedly. It played out with the Great Society and the Sh'iar attack.

[CryNotWolf]

I didn't refuse to acknowledge that there were mitigating circumstances for Reed's actions. In fact I specifically said that. Unlike THE RAY, and his likeminded friends, who refuse to acknowledge the mitigating circumstances of Namor's actions in Hickman's storyline -- or really any story for the last NINE PAGES.

Yeah, no. You didn't. What you did was embolden, embiggen, and color-type your statement in order to make Reed's actions seem as severe as you possibly could. At least take credit for your comments, if you've nothing else to offer.

Again, that is simply untrue. Sue left Reed and the FF and went to a FRIEND's house, for several issues. And, as far as I remember, she took Franklin and didn't leave him with Reed. And she certainly didn't run off with TO Namor. Namor, as according to Operation Rescue Reed and Sue's Marriage, went TO Sue and took her to Atlantis.

So you're saying that Sue never went to live with Namor? That she never served Reed divorce papers without even TALKING to him? That she didn't stand right in front of Reed's face afterwards and say that she loved Namor more and that she decided to live with him forever? Maybe you should read the story again, if you indeed ever read it in the first place.

Also, Namor led a FAKE attack on the FF, and at the very end of the issue, he revealed his actions were a sham and was very pleased to see the plan worked out and Sue went back to Reed. Sue definitely knows who her real friends are.

A fake attack that Sue thought was genuine, one she stood by completely until the very last second. She was ready and willing to help Namor in his conquest to destroy humanity as long as Namor promised not to hurt Ben or Johnny, though she made no qualm about Reed's demise. Hell, she literally attacked the Fantasti-Car that Reed and Thundra were riding, without provocation. Also she retaliated quicker when Namor was attacked, promising vengeance when Ben and Reed attacked Namor, and yet stood by idly when Namor beat Johnny and the rest of the F4 into the sea.

And I like the insinuation that her "true friend" is the guy who has not only attempted to kill her husband, brother, and friends (multiple times mind you), but the guy who has also kidnapped her and attempted to conquer/enslave all of humanity multiple times as well. The man who constantly tries to steal her away from her husband and children, who very often every step he can to act as a wrench in her marriage.

And finally, no. The idea that Sue should blithely Stand By Her Man, after this traumatic event, is nonsense. She isn't a Stepford Wife. Leaving to sort out her feelings is entirely understandable.

Nice false analogy, but it won't do your argument any good. What Reed did was take a make a difficult, impulsive decision to save not only the lives of his wife and child, but the lives of literally every human on Earth. It was a decision thrust upon him by Annihilus, and what's more literally nobody was hurt. The idea that Sue's reaction was appropriate in any way completely baffles me. She didn't even bother having a discussion or anything, she just immediately condemned Reed to hell, ran away with his child, and then ran into the arms of another man and forsook her marriage. It was a summation of many of the WORST stereotypes of women, and the idea that you imply that her actions as befitting a woman of true character...quite frankly I find that insulting.

As I didn't condemn Reed's actions severely, merely emphasized Sue's mitigating circumstances, your accusation of hypocrisy falls flat. Especially since you clearly have a double standard, as you haven't taken THE RAY or his friends, to task for posting nine pages of complete untruths, bizarre and unsubstantiated interpretations, and "severe condemnation" of Namor (and Sue) for things they did NOT do, or without any consideration to the mitigating circumstances of their actions.

No, I'm pretty confident my use of the term "hypocrisy" is well-founded. It's the type of thinking that leads people to calling Reed a terrible person and husband because he can be inattentive and tunnel-visioned and sometimes makes mistakes, but then say Namor is the peak of nobility and honor given all the scummy things he's regularly done and continues to do. Things like kidnapping, assault, full-scale invasion, and more.

[Abe]

the knowledge that they were working with is that they could be blown up if they didn't blow up the other ship. and Joker very much was going to detonate one of the ship; if neither side chose. the crux of the choices made is that they preferred the nobility of death to the murder of others. Namor was motivated by fear and desperation. Doom said as much. the Illuminati, Namor included, could have just made the other universes aware of the situation. instead, they took their insider knowledge and went about planning the murder of other worlds. and Namor went the furthest down that dark hole.

Still the people on the two ferries put only their own lives at risk, not the lives of everyone in Gotham, or on Earth or in two whole universes. It could have changed their choice, don't you think ?

Hickman was really ugly!

[Reviresco]

This is why Sue likes Namor. He was the first character to SEE the Invisible Woman, even when she was referred to as the Invisible Girl. He isn't afraid of being emotionally available, and actually pays attention to Sue. Reed would rather spend most of his time paying attention to his lab.

However, Namor is right. Sue loves Reed, for some reason. The heart wants what the heart wants.

Reed deserves better.

Maybe he can hook up with Namor too.

LOL! Sure, the old 'faint into his arms' ploy.

[DragonsChi]

yes, it would have been better to let everyone in the universe die instead, as long as he got to keep his hands clean.

And if Namor hadn't stopped the incursions then, Doom wouldn't have had enough time to find a way to save all the worlds. Everyone would have just died, and that would have been the end of it.

Yea...in that instance Namor did what he always does. Sacrificed himself for the sake of his people and whoever else he actually cares about. Namor feels that others should not take such burdens if he is able too. You also have to factor in his the personal psychology of that out of everyone present Namor has more claim/stake to the Earth then anyone present. Namor is ruler of 70% of the planet. Told since childhood that 70% of the world would look to him for guidance and protection. That is a huge weight on anyone shoulders, making the choices he makes for the world all the more heavier. Out everyone their Namor in terms of being a king has to think on a whole other level that they would never fully understand.

The ratio is way off. What would Tiny(prisoner) have done if the Joker had put a nuke in Gotham set to detonate if neither side chooses?

It is not the same moral dilemma at all. In the Dark Knight iirc if no one choose to blow the bombs no ferry would explode. It would have been the same situation if the result of not blowing the other ferry meant that both explode. And their respective universes (?!?) are annihilated too.

The choice made by Namor is closer than you think of the one made by the prisoner. Namor sacrifices his own morality to save much more lives than he took.Two entire universes vs one planet...

Yeah, that was a terrible point. Mike's scenario is way off. Billions of innocent people would have died and there after billions more would have too.

[theoneandonly]

this thread made me think about how two- three of caps closest friends are the ones who are pragmatists who always believe in ends justifying the means. Bucky was literally a child drafted to be a killer and do the things necessary to win the war so that the good captain can keep his hands clean. namor and tony also fall into the same category. anyway as to the ops question namor and cap are frenimies more than likley to fight each other on some occasion or other as often as they team

[CentralPower]

if you saw it, you know that he would have prayed on it (as if he'd have an option in this ridiculous scenario); making the same choice. the point is that he had faith. given the importance of the 616, maybe some of the "heroes" should have had some faith. how often have these characters died; only to return, later?

Neither the Nolan Bat-movies nor Hickman's Avengers run were Silver Age comics. In fact, the lead-up to the fight with the Great Society in "New Avengers" specifically highlights the absurdity of "hope" in a world-ending scenario.

It is not the same moral dilemma at all. In the Dark Knight iirc if no one choose to blow the bombs no ferry would explode. It would have been the same situation if the result of not blowing the other ferry meant that both explode. And their respective universes (?!?) are annihilated too.

The Joker would have blown up both ferries is neither blew up the other.

Iirc the dead Panthers kinda all agree with Namor : according to them T'challa should have blown the other Earth to save many more - including his own and Wakanda on it. So yes, Namor was merciful saving those who left.

You leave that complex moral variable out of this thread about binary logic and pining for Silver Age morals!

...but, yes. And you put it well.

Anyway if you want to blame some monsters you really have to add many more :

Inside the book :

I touched on this above. And, for the sake of people who have not read the run, or forgot, all of the Illuminati has some blame, save for (arguably) Banner/Hulk.

Richards: designed world-killer bombs.
Panther: provided resources and facilities to build the world-killer bombs, with the understanding that they were meant to be used.
Stark: built said world-killer bombs, and other weapons.
Beast: primed the bomb that destroyed the Great Society's world.
Black Bolt: transported the bomb.
-Strange: in addition to being a member of the Black Priests, he killed several members of the Great Society, and left their world vulnerable to being destroyed by....
-Namor: suddenly does not look so bad next to the rest of the team.

And, Captain America is kind of an arse for being more interested in punishing Stark than in solving the problem.


And, leaving the dirty work of saving existence to Namor (or Doom or the Cabal or....) is arguably worse than Namor actually doing the dirty work. (I am squeamish about meat, and try not to eat mammals. But, I am not a vegetarian. A friend of mine hunts his own venison. I concede the moral high ground to him.)

Namor and Batroc!

Batroc really has been over-shadowed in this discussion.

Point 3, which I bolded, is my main objection to what Hickman did to Namor. Similar to what I said earlier, HOW do you 'fix' that? If you are going to trash a character like that, I think the writer should have to fix it.

The character is not "trashed" by being used in a good run of comics.

Wow. Excellent points. I didn't even think about that for Namor and the Great Society fight. Though ... I'm not entirely sure that is exactly the case. I guess I'll have to read it again.

Namor is chugging some kind of Atlantean brew a few hours before the fight. And, look at his face before the fight. He is almost talking himself in to what is coming.

Yes, Namor was saving his planet, but people forget, he was also saving the other universe as well.

Exactly. The rest of the Illuminati built and prepared the bomb. But, they left Namor to use it. (Namor is still an asshold. But , he is not the only *******.)

[The Ray]

This is why Sue likes Namor. He was the first character to SEE the Invisible Woman, even when she was referred to as the Invisible Girl. He isn't afraid of being emotionally available, and actually pays attention to Sue. Reed would rather spend most of his time paying attention to his lab.

He also is the overly violent guy that has a history of attacking New York whenever he is angered (which is 90% of the time), the guy that has killed civilians in his tantrums, the guy that has harmed her family, the guy that has kidnapped her too many times...

[The Ray]

I also think that justifying every Namor's misdeeds with "He is a king!" is not only coward, but a very poor excuse.

Ruling over Atlantis (a place whose only role is to be destroyed every 3 years) doesn't give him the right to attack New York and its civilians. In fact, doesn't give him the right to attack anyone. There are a lot of villains in positions of power in fiction that are villains for this very reason. Why should Namor be treated differently?

Namor attacking cities or civilians doesn't make him complex. It makes him a villain.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

[The Ray]

Again, poor Reed.

What if the roles were reversed? Reed pinning over and even leaving Sue for a particularly violent woman that has killed civilians and even tried to kill Sue on occasion? I wonder if readers would find it "beautiful" and "magical" like they do with Namor and Sue.