Waffletastic Stephanie Brown Appreciation (Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl/Spoiler again)

[Assam]

The differences are just as big between Tynions steph and pre flashpoint steph.
The steph i like is the girl next door, thats her archtype. She gets on the costume to piss her dad, she stays on the costume to get the guy she likes. She gets mentored and learns what it means to be a hero.
The steph we get is this angsty super genius daughter of super genius that fails to grasp why batman does what he does. I saw brought up that her relationship with Tim hurt the character because it made her lash out, but it was stablished thats the way she thought before Tim ever died, so his demise was merely a catalyst. I really miss the old steph, she was fun!

That's just it though. She was an archetype. She was "fun". And those things alone do not make a fully fleshed out character. One thing Miller and I have been saying from the start, even as our opinions diverged on the quality of Steph's storyline, was that Tynion needed to do something. There's nothing wrong with the "girl next door" archetype, but without all the character development she got over so many years, she's a generic, spunky teen hero. And since he couldn't repeat certain things (the pregnancy, her full history with Tim and Cass, the changes that came with being Robin and Batgirl, etc) and his Bruce wasn't a sexist d**khead who'd reject Steph, he had to try something else.

Also, Steph stayed a hero because she wanted to be a hero, not to get the guy she liked. Frankly, if you just look at their characterizations from the 90's, one would get the impression that Steph would still be out spoiling plans long after Tim had decided to retire.

[millernumber1]

I think she did need to find a new starting point after getting killed. It was as good a starting point as any.

I dont think Niciezas Red Robin was morally ambiguous, the character just embraced some of Bruces mania to get things done, he acknowledged it was necesary to a degree to succeed.

The problem is deeper than just some personality traits. The big difference between the character pre and post flashpoint is very simple. One is a pragmatist, the other an idealist. From that point on everything falls apart.
Tim at his 13 being an idealist was fine, he was barely starting his career and he was just a kid. That kid grew up rapidly tho, because of his mothers death, his failures at doing the job, and his smart nature.

The differences are just as big between Tynions steph and pre flashpoint steph.
The steph i like is the girl next door, thats her archtype. She gets on the costume to piss her dad, she stays on the costume to get the guy she likes. She gets mentored and learns what it means to be a hero.
The steph we get is this angsty super genius daughter of super genius that fails to grasp why batman does what he does. I saw brought up that her relationship with Tim hurt the character because it made her lash out, but it was stablished thats the way she thought before Tim ever died, so his demise was merely a catalyst. I really miss the old steph, she was fun!

Apreciate the fact that scarab didnt kill if she didnt have to. That she was professional enough to follow her employers instructions to the letter, and that she could be controlled if you had the money. Tho the last part backfired on her.

Why is "betraying Tim and basically being an incompetent" a good starting point for someone who's trying to redeem themselves from War Games? Not to mention actually contributing to ANOTHER set of gang wars? It's just so incredibly tone-deaf on FabNic's part.

Doing the kinds of things Tim was doing both at the end of his Robin run, and the end of his Red Robin run, were definitely "ends justify the means", which to me is very morally ambiguous. To some extent, all of the Batfamily have to do that, since they are vigilantes, but there's a line, and Tim's deliberately treading on it, instead of staying on one side of it.

Remember that at least as far as we know, neither of Tim's parents are dead, which means that the initial tragedy that started his life as Robin is gone, leaving him much more open to idealism, I think.

I agree that Steph is supposed to be the girl next door - and I think Tynion did get some of that (Seeley got it more, as did Fletcher to some extent). In Batman Eternal #43, he has her struggling with the enormity of the life she's chosen, and shows her previous life as a normal kid, with selfies and duckfaces (though you could make a serious if overly nerdy argument about her class being upgraded from barely-making-it in the suburbs to pretty solidly middle-class).

The Steph we see in Tec is likely supposed to be the Steph AFTER Dixon's 100 issues. She's been through a lot, and gotten mentored by both Catwoman and Batgirl. I do think the genius thing is pretty annoying, but I think except for the hacker-fu, Tynion mostly stays away from too much "I'm so smart" with Steph.

I do think that current Steph isn't nearly fun enough, but a lot of that was her grief for Tim, and then her anger at his deliberately not telling her his plans, even though they affected her and he knew what she thought his plans were. (A lot of Steph fans have told me that BQM's Steph is too chirpy and not angry enough, so I hope they, at least, are happy that she's full of the rage. Ah, well.)

Scarab killed KIDS! I don't care if she showed some restraint. She killed children. And she often killed their parents because it was easier. I do not buy, for one minute, that Steph written properly, would EVER work with or hire her.

[millernumber1]

That's just it though. She was an archetype. She was "fun". And those things alone do not make a fully fleshed out character. One thing Miller and I have been saying from the start, even as our opinions diverged on the quality of Steph's storyline, was that Tynion needed to do something. There's nothing wrong with the "girl next door" archetype, but without all the character development she got over so many years, she's a generic, spunky teen hero. And since he couldn't repeat certain things (the pregnancy, her full history with Tim and Cass, the changes that came with being Robin and Batgirl, etc) and his Bruce wasn't a sexist d**khead who'd reject Steph, he had to try something else.

Also, Steph stayed a hero because she wanted to be a hero, not to get the guy she liked. Frankly, if you just look at their characterizations from the 90's, one would get the impression that Steph would still be out spoiling plans long after Tim had decided to retire.

Agreed! And I do want to reiterate that I think that Tynion did stumble significantly in Steph's storyline with Utopia and then Fall of the Batmen, I just think he recovered pretty solidly with 980, and I liked Wrath of Spoiler quite a bit.

I also agree that Steph was a hero who was in it because she wanted to help. She loved Tim, and there was an element of chasing him involved in her being Spoiler, but if you look at the arc where she became Robin, when Tim is forced to give up the cowl, there's no sign that she would give up being Spoiler because he gave up Robin. (Even if her becoming Robin was a tangled mess of her wanting Batman's approval and jealousy of Darla Aquista.) And Dixon, in the Robin/Spoiler Special, shows that being a hero is really who Steph is in her Africa story. Even FabNic, in the really slapdash Gotham Gazette story for Steph, has her persist in being a hero in the face of Tim's nastiest rejection.

[Mataza]

and his Bruce wasn't a sexist d**khead who'd reject Steph, he had to try something else.

Why would he be sexist for rejecting her?

[millernumber1]

Why would he be sexist for rejecting her?

Because he didn't reject any of the male Robins for doing the same things.

[Mataza]

Why is "betraying Tim and basically being an incompetent" a good starting point.

I never much liked that she betrayed the guy, but it was basically in line with what she had done before. She basically cared more about what everyone else but Tim thought.
If you want to reedem the character you have to ackowledge the development first, and work from there.
Its better than having the characters ignore what happened. Like Dick letting a woman kill his nemesis and rape him.

Doing the kinds of things Tim was doing both at the end of his Robin run, and the end of his Red Robin run, were definitely "ends justify the means", which to me is very morally ambiguous. To some extent, all of the Batfamily have to do that, since they are vigilantes, but there's a line, and Tim's deliberately treading on it, instead of staying on one side of it.

And thats fine, the character always threaded on the line. From the start when he worked with the huntress all the way to the end. Its interesting.

Remember that at least as far as we know, neither of Tim's parents are dead, which means that the initial tragedy that started his life as Robin is gone, leaving him much more open to idealism, I think.

Probably, hopefully thats what Tynion is going for. But having to endure this boring kid with no drive or conflict is getting on my nerves, and i just recently got into the character, cant imagine what its like for long time fans.

The Steph we see in Tec is likely supposed to be the Steph AFTER Dixon's 100 issues. She's been through a lot, and gotten mentored by both Catwoman and Batgirl. I do think the genius thing is pretty annoying, but I think except for the hacker-fu, Tynion mostly stays away from too much "I'm so smart" with Steph.

No, actually this is a completely different steph. This isnt the girl that got annoyed with batman and slapped him, this is the girl that tried to blackmail everyone close to her to get them to listen.

I do think that current Steph isn't nearly fun enough, but a lot of that was her grief for Tim, and then her anger at his deliberately not telling her his plans, even though they affected her and he knew what she thought his plans were. (A lot of Steph fans have told me that BQM's Steph is too chirpy and not angry enough, so I hope they, at least, are happy that she's full of the rage. Ah, well.)

Grief was a catalyst, she was with the knights because of Tim, not because she believed in what Batman did. And them breaking up over him getting obessed wasnt bad for either character, conflict and tension are good.

Scarab killed KIDS! I don't care if she showed some restraint. She killed children. And she often killed their parents because it was easier. I do not buy, for one minute, that Steph written properly, would EVER work with or hire her.

Harley has killed kids and bruce and dick are all too happy to help her out some times.
But other than that she could have had any number of reasons to hire scarab, maybe it was a setup so that tim would capture her, maybe it was because she thought deadshot, deathstroke or shiva were a bit out of Tims league, maybe it was because she was available and steph knew how to contact her, maybe it was just because Nicieza liked the character, seeing as he reused her during the Red Robin solo. Who knows, its not relevant to the story, and if a writer was interested in exploring why she did it they would have.

[Mataza]

Because he didn't reject any of the male Robins for doing the same things.

Its heavily implied she was just using Steph to get Tim back in the costume. She could have been an attack helicopter and it wouldnt have mattered.
Also i really dont remember any robin fudging it up that badly.

[millernumber1]

I never much liked that she betrayed the guy, but it was basically in line with what she had done before. She basically cared more about what everyone else but Tim thought.
If you want to reedem the character you have to ackowledge the development first, and work from there.
Its better than having the characters ignore what happened. Like Dick letting a woman kill his nemesis and rape him.

And thats fine, the character always threaded on the line. From the start when he worked with the huntress all the way to the end. Its interesting.

Probably, hopefully thats what Tynion is going for. But having to endure this boring kid with no drive or conflict is getting on my nerves, and i just recently got into the character, cant imagine what its like for long time fans.

No, actually this is a completely different steph. This isnt the girl that got annoyed with batman and slapped him, this is the girl that tried to blackmail everyone close to her to get them to listen.

Grief was a catalyst, she was with the knights because of Tim, not because she believed in what Batman did. And them breaking up over him getting obessed wasnt bad for either character, conflict and tension are good.

Harley has killed kids and bruce and dick are all too happy to help her out some times.
But other than that she could have had any number of reasons to hire scarab, maybe it was a setup so that tim would capture her, maybe it was because she thought deadshot, deathstroke or shiva were a bit out of Tims league, maybe it was because she was available and steph knew how to contact her, maybe it was just because Nicieza liked the character, seeing as he reused her during the Red Robin solo. Who knows, its not relevant to the story, and if a writer was interested in exploring why she did it they would have.

I do not follow what you're saying in your analogy between Dick and Steph.

When did Steph care more about everyone but Tim before War Games? Tim was basically the most important person in her life until War Games, and even then, she loved him intensely.

Let's say that fundamentally, I see Tim as much more of a natural idealist. Thus, Tynion's version of him rings pretty true to me. And I don't think he's boring at all. He built really cool stuff for the Belfry - how is that a lack of drive? That particular comment is just so detached from anything we saw in Detective Comics I'm really puzzled about what you're reading.

How is Steph slapping Bruce for playing games with her radically different that Steph who (fake) blackmails Batman to try to make life better for her fellow heros? I simply don't follow a lot of your leaps in logic.

I don't think you can really make a claim that Steph was with the Knights because of Tim. She was clearly out heroing before she started dating Tim, and continued doing it solo even when they were dating. She clearly had philosophical and more importantly emotional problems with Batman from the start in her new origin in Batman Eternal.

I agree that her breaking up with Tim over getting obsessed was good, but her going back and forth in two issues - first she tells Anarky that she's "where she's supposed to be" and then the next issue she just NOPEs out on Tim. I think she makes the right choice to leave Tim since he's lying to her and clearly not willing to change his behavior even to save his own health, let alone their relationship, but the going back and forth was a real failing in writing.

I don't see Bruce and Dick teaming up with Harley except when the world is ending. Steph hires Scarab at a time of crisis, yes, but there are other people she could have gone with. The fact that you think Steph's part of the story isn't important I think pretty much proves that FabNic wasn't writing her well.

[millernumber1]

Its heavily implied she was just using Steph to get Tim back in the costume. She could have been an attack helicopter and it wouldnt have mattered.
Also i really dont remember any robin fudging it up that badly.

1) I'm talking about Batman's pattern of rejection starting with Dixon's exit from the Robin title, where Bruce setup that horrible test with the Penguin and then played mind games with her for a whole issue.

2) What, exactly, is your articulation of Stephs screwing up so badly? She tried to save Batman and fell into a trap. Robins are famous for falling into traps. She didn't get anyone killed, she just served as Robin, the Girl Hostage, letting the bad guy get away temporarily (but since FabNic is a jerk, Scarab just shows up later over and over again, instead of Steph or Tim or Bruce focusing on taking that murderous criminal down.)

3) You say yourself that it's an IMPLICATION, meaning that the motivation behind Bruce letting Steph be Robin is not explicit. Which, to me, implies that there's more going on, especially given all the interviews with Willingham where he's said he would have preferred for Bruce to keep Steph as Robin because sales were good and he wanted to tell a seasoned warrior training a young squire story really badly. So that, to me, indicates that the creative team wasn't just playing a complete game with Steph.

[Mataza]

I do not follow what you're saying in your analogy between Dick and Steph.

That Steph had the bad development acknowledged, which sets up a redemption story. And making her into the next Batgirl was quite redeeming.
Dick instead gets the bad developent ignored, meaning one less interesting conflict to explore in a character that already has very few interesting conflicts to explore. They should have rolled with it, and seen where it took them.

When did Steph care more about everyone but Tim before War Games? Tim was basically the most important person in her life until War Games, and even then, she loved him intensely.

Steph loves Tim like no one else, and he loves her back in the same way. They are a classical pairing, a strong one that started basically at the start of both of their careers, she is his mary jane.
But after a certain point she stopped caring about his advice, and started listening to people that thought knew better, oracle, black canary, batman, etc.

Let's say that fundamentally, I see Tim as much more of a natural idealist. Thus, Tynion's version of him rings pretty true to me. And I don't think he's boring at all. He built really cool stuff for the Belfry - how is that a lack of drive? That particular comment is just so detached from anything we saw in Detective Comics I'm really puzzled about what you're reading.

Tim hasnt been an idealist since dixon started writing him, he has been very grounded for most of his run, very pragmatic and concerned with whats right in front of him.
He is boring because he is basically the blank slate we got in a lonely place of dying with a tech saavy flavor. I didnt think he built anything cool, more like he put together a ton of really expensive equipment that already exists in real life.
And his lack of drive was there up until the lonely place of living arc, where he goes into detail about why he does what he does. Then he spends the rest of the run being completely self absorbed and worried about a possible future. Instead of being proactive like the old Tim during the birthday storyline this kid just gets angry and leaves, then gets back and is useless.

How is Steph slapping Bruce for playing games with her radically different that Steph who (fake) blackmails Batman to try to make life better for her fellow heros? I simply don't follow a lot of your leaps in logic.

The first one is funny, its cute, endearing. The second one made most people groan.

I don't think you can really make a claim that Steph was with the Knights because of Tim.

In the first issue of detective she tells Tim shes only there because of him. For the reasons you posted below.

She was clearly out heroing before she started dating Tim, and continued doing it solo even when they were dating. She clearly had philosophical and more importantly emotional problems with Batman from the start in her new origin in Batman Eternal.

Agreed.

I agree that her breaking up with Tim over getting obsessed was good, but her going back and forth in two issues - first she tells Anarky that she's "where she's supposed to be" and then the next issue she just NOPEs out on Tim. I think she makes the right choice to leave Tim since he's lying to her and clearly not willing to change his behavior even to save his own health, let alone their relationship, but the going back and forth was a real failing in writing.

Agree, could have been cut out.

I don't see Bruce and Dick teaming up with Harley except when the world is ending. Steph hires Scarab at a time of crisis, yes, but there are other people she could have gone with. The fact that you think Steph's part of the story isn't important I think pretty much proves that FabNic wasn't writing her well.

I believe her part in the story is essential to the story and to the larger story that comes after, i just dont believe the "why scarab?" is.
Plenty of times Harley has been teamed up with them, and with the league as well.
Theres this story where batman drives her home, theres that other story where harley and dick work together when he was a spy, etc. Shes a popular character, so she gets pushed with most characters pretty often. Its not a bad thing in itself, but just like her being in a justice league team, it makes absolutely no sense from a storytelling standpoing.

[millernumber1]

That Steph had the bad development acknowledged, which sets up a redemption story. And making her into the next Batgirl was quite redeeming.
Dick instead gets the bad developent ignored, meaning one less interesting conflict to explore in a character that already has very few interesting conflicts to explore. They should have rolled with it, and seen where it took them.

Steph loves Tim like no one else, and he loves her back in the same way. They are a classical pairing, a strong one that started basically at the start of both of their careers, she is his mary jane.
But after a certain point she stopped caring about his advice, and started listening to people that thought knew better, oracle, black canary, batman, etc.

The first one is funny, its cute, endearing. The second one made most people groan.

In the first issue of detective she tells Tim shes only there because of him. For the reasons you posted below.

I believe her part in the story is essential to the story and to the larger story that comes after, i just dont believe the "why scarab?" is.
Plenty of times Harley has been teamed up with them, and with the league as well.
Theres this story where batman drives her home, theres that other story where harley and dick work together when he was a spy, etc. Shes a popular character, so she gets pushed with most characters pretty often. Its not a bad thing in itself, but just like her being in a justice league team, it makes absolutely no sense from a storytelling standpoing.

I don't see Steph's redemption really started until Batgirl. You can maybe make a case for Gotham Gazette, but that's kinda tenuous. FabNic seems to be mostly digging Steph further in a hole she needs to get out of.

Definitely agree that Steph and Tim's histories are intertwined at their roots, and she is the pairing that makes most sense for him (and he for her, in my reading, though I can see the arguments against it). I don't see her being mentored by Dinah or Bruce really stopping her from listening to Tim, though. At least not until she became Robin. Where do you see her ignoring Tim's advice and listening to someone else before that point?

I don't see many non-Steph fans even bringing up the slap. I have no doubt that if non-Steph fans did bring it up, it would be to complain about how terrible she is, just like every time they bring her up. I do agree that Steph fans were mostly not on Steph's side with the ending of the Victim Syndicate - but I think if you read it carefully, she's still sympathetic, even if she's wrong.

I just reread 934, and I really don't see Steph saying anything like that. I also checked 935 and 939. When Tim tells Steph he's going to Ivy University, it's clear that Steph will remain in Gotham, and no indication that she'll give up being a hero.

I really don't think Harley has teamed up with Batman or Nightwing "plenty of times" when it's not something crazy, like Metal or Nope Justice. Additionally, when has Harley gone around just straight up murdering children since n52 (since that's the version we're talking about here). I really don't see Batman doing much to team up with Harley pre-Flashpoint, either. He lets her do her thing in Gotham City Sirens, but that's because the courts cleared her and she's not actually doing anything evil. But fundamentally, I don't think it's really worth arguing about Steph hiring Scarab. Either you think it's in character for Steph to be so callous and stupid, or you think FabNic was handling her character really poorly for no good reason.

[Godlike13]

That Steph had the bad development acknowledged, which sets up a redemption story. And making her into the next Batgirl was quite redeeming.
Dick instead gets the bad developent ignored, meaning one less interesting conflict to explore in a character that already has very few interesting conflicts to explore. They should have rolled with it, and seen where it took them.

Not the place to go into it, but this isn't even close to accurate.

[millernumber1]

Not the place to go into it, but this isn't even close to accurate.

About Steph or about Dick?

[Godlike13]

About Steph or about Dick?

Dick.

Though with Steph, ultimately how they redeemed her was to have her move forward. Her Batgirl didn't really have much set up even.

[Aahz]

They're both going to be in the Young Justice Outsiders cartoon, which as far as media prospects seems pretty good, and it seems possible they might both be in the eventual Young Justice relaunch.

Problem is, that the main characters of that show seem to be these guys.