Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[Hcmarvel]

The central idea behind Schism could have been good, an ideological split between X-Men wasn't a bad idea, but it was very badly done.

Second, the instigating conflict was asinine, Wolverine of all people telling Idie to run away and abandon a whole team of X-Men, including close friends and the Mayor of San Francisco to die rather than fight is crazy.
Third, as has been mentioned, having Wolverine as the face and driving force of the opposing faction never made any sense.
Fourth, It completely ignores the absolute shitstorm of events that led the mutants to unite and go to Utopia in the first place, acting as if none of those things were a problem anymore.
Fifth, It turned Wolverine and the leaders of the JGS faction into incredible hypocrites considering how often their own kids got into life and death situations. Not to mention they all routinely did what they castigated Cyclops for.
Seventh, The JGS faction continually mischaracterized Cyclops as if he were cavalier in his attitude about risking mutant kids lives, which in the books he never was. He was at worst willing to let them fight to defend themselves and their home. Also the world really was out to kill those kids.
Eight, It was largely one sided, WatXM bashed Cyclops all the time but the Utopian X-Men never really were bothered by the JGS.

These are all...very good points. And again, I like Schism. You've made me reconsider some things.

I think I'm still a fan as I really do like the Messiah Complex to Avengers Vs. X-Men era. Nation X, Utopia/Dark Avengers crossover, Cable's book with Hope, X-Force, Second Coming, Uncanny X-Force, Mike Carey's X-Men Legacy...it's a good era for X-Men I think. I know Messiah Complex and Uncanny X-Force are well regarded but I think the whole era was fairly well done.

[Hizashi]

The central idea behind Schism could have been good, an ideological split between X-Men wasn't a bad idea, but it was very badly done.

First, it relied on the godawful Hellfire brats as villains and beating any number of veteran X-Men with the idiot bat in order to make it work.
Second, the instigating conflict was asinine, Wolverine of all people telling Idie to run away and abandon a whole team of X-Men, including close friends and the Mayor of San Francisco to die rather than fight is crazy.
Third, as has been mentioned, having Wolverine as the face and driving force of the opposing faction never made any sense.
Fourth, It completely ignores the absolute shitstorm of events that led the mutants to unite and go to Utopia in the first place, acting as if none of those things were a problem anymore.
Fifth, It turned Wolverine and the leaders of the JGS faction into incredible hypocrites considering how often their own kids got into life and death situations. Not to mention they all routinely did what they castigated Cyclops for.
Sixth, The Hellfire Brats
Seventh, The JGS faction continually mischaracterized Cyclops as if he were cavalier in his attitude about risking mutant kids lives, which in the books he never was. He was at worst willing to let them fight to defend themselves and their home. Also the world really was out to kill those kids.
Eight, It was largely one sided, WatXM bashed Cyclops all the time but the Utopian X-Men never really were bothered by the JGS.
Ninth, Until the useless ball of crap that was AvX and its character assassination, Cyclops and co. never lived up to the hate and vitriol from the JGS and in spite of being clearly intended to be the final "villain" of the piece AvX still managed to make everyone else look worse. It might have been less of a bad plot if they at least had Cyclops actually acting like a villain
Tenth, The goddamned Hellfire brats

Sorry for the rant, I really hated schism.

No need to apologize for such a good post, Schism is terrible.

[frostedemma]

Riri took off successfully

Miles, Kamala, Moon girl took off successfully and by the looks of this new Latino Ghost Rider will be sticking around for a long while.

How is it tokenism when the minority character becomes the lead? As the lead where he/she is the focus, makes the primary decisions, headlines the title, is the centre of the plot and it's progression, gets in-depth character progression and isn't some lackey....how is that tokenism?

Heck, Miles is not even the first black Spiderman (despite being the first black one) .... there's Spiderman 2099 Miguel who has had multitudes of solo series.

Tokens are characters used as glorified wall paper.

Main MU puts real effort towards INCLUSIVE diversity giving non white characters growth and true contributive prominence....where are such non-white characters in the X-Men? Where are the attempts?

I almost forgot Silk (Asian spider character) and Arana also got plenty of support.

Storm is said to be the leading non-white character of the X-Men but how many solo attempts and mini series has she had over the DECADES.

If the minority characters are so hard to write, how is it that the main MU keep pouring out so many of them brilliantly and the X-Men does NOT?

Exactly. Tokenism would be what fox did with the poc x-men. They had no problem using Storm, Psylocke and Jubilee for promo and to bring fans in and had Lana Condor do the entire press circuit and build up hype for Jubilee fans only to cut 85% of her scenes (but have no problem keeping that useless 10 minute wolverine cameo). They took jubilee out of the main fighting for no reasons but kept all the white actors, they had apocalypse give power upgrade to Storm and Psylocke and had Betsy get taken down by Beast of all people when she's a psychic ninja.

Did you read Bendis' Riri? Maybe it sold well, I don't know, but who liked his run of the character? I leafed through a few issues and he did his own creation no favors. And I consider it tokenism because these new characters aren't given their own identities or strong ties to the previous characters. They don't want to put in the slow work of building them over time so they just become new iterations of Iron Man/Ghost Rider/Ms. Marvel.

Miles had the advantage of being the Ultimate successor, there was an organic method to his introduction.

I don't know, having the characters there doesn't mean that their books are good. I read the first four or five volumes of Ms. Marvel and the quality dipped as it went along.

Just because you personally don't like those runs doesn't they aren't good. If Riri didn't appeal to a substantial audience she wouldn't have gotten a solo run that sold well and tons of merch, marvel would have axed her a long time ago like they did with the inhumans inhumans, amadeus cho and nova. If there was no audience for kamala she wouldn't have got a seventh reprinting of her first issue and she wouldn't be getting Wolverine level of exposure when she's only been around for seven years. Marvel will push new characters/titles and if they don't get momentum marvel will drop them and move to the next thing.

Claiming that Kamala and Riri don't have any connections to Carol and Tony tells me you haven't actually bothered to read their comics appearances because they do have a deep connection with their predecessor/name sake. But then if Carol and Tony did feature even more prominently with Kamala and Riri they'd be complaints that they rely to heavily on their namesake and can't stand on their own.

[Hizashi]

Just because you personally don't like those runs doesn't they aren't good. If Riri didn't appeal to a substantial audience she wouldn't have gotten a solo run that sold well and tons of merch, marvel would have axed her a long time ago like they did with the inhumans inhumans, amadeus cho and nova. If there was no audience for kamala she wouldn't have got a seventh reprinting of her first issue and she wouldn't be getting Wolverine level of exposure when she's only been around for seven years. Marvel will push new characters/titles and if they don't get momentum marvel will drop them and move to the next thing.

Claiming that Kamala and Riri don't have any connections to Carol and Tony tells me you haven't actually bothered to read their comics appearances because they do have a deep connection with their predecessor/name sake. But then if Carol and Tony did feature even more prominently with Kamala and Riri they'd be complaints that they rely to heavily on their namesake and can't stand on their own.

No need to play detective, I told you myself that I didn't read Riri's book; however, I absolutely did read Ms. Marvel. It was a few years ago and I haven't reread it since, and as far as I can recall Kamala idolized Carol and even teamed up with her later in the run - but that doesn't make for strong ties. Riri didn't meet Tony for a long while, right? That AI doesn't count AFAIC. I'm not saying that they needed to be a c-list character in another book for 40+ issues but it's not enough to hand a mantle to a new character and expect success - the creative work has to be put in. You can't just fill a vacancy.

Sales don't denote quality, only popularity. I think there are objective ways to judge even comics, or there wouldn't be professional reviewers - and I think both Riri and Kamala got off to a rough start. If you look at their first issues, they make serious mistakes: Ms. Marvel is a superhero book and yet nothing related to that happens until the very end, not a good first issue; Riri's first issue has superheroics but is a narrative mess which fails to establish Riri's character. Now, Ms. Marvel recovered, but Riri was used better outside of her own book until Eve Ewing got a hold of her. The former is my opinion from reading the books, the latter is from talking to people at my LCS and leafing through some of Ewing's books.

[frostedemma]

No need to play detective, I told you myself that I didn't read Riri's book; however, I absolutely did read Ms. Marvel. It was a few years ago and I haven't reread it since, and as far as I can recall Kamala idolized Carol and even teamed up with her later in the run - but that doesn't make for strong ties. Riri didn't meet Tony for a long while, right? That AI doesn't count AFAIC. I'm not saying that they needed to be a c-list character in another book for 40+ issues but it's not enough to hand a mantle to a new character and expect success - the creative work has to be put in. You can't just fill a vacancy.

Sales don't denote quality, only popularity. I think there are objective ways to judge even comics, or there wouldn't be professional reviewers - and I think both Riri and Kamala got off to a rough start. If you look at their first issues, they make serious mistakes: Ms. Marvel is a superhero book and yet nothing related to that happens until the very end, not a good first issue; Riri's first issue has superheroics but is a narrative mess which fails to establish Riri's character. Now, Ms. Marvel recovered, but Riri was used better outside of her own book until Eve Ewing got a hold of her. The former is my opinion from reading the books, the latter is from talking to people at my LCS and leafing through some of Ewing's books.

I really don't understand your point and I think you're conflating your personal opinion and taste with general consensus. First you claim that Kamala and Riri aren't that popular and don't generate much sales and know you claim the quality of their stories is poor. Kamala didn't get off to a rough start, Ms. Marvel #1 got a seventh reprint, was received with critical acclaim from the start and received multiple award nomination and won a Hugo, an american book award and won the price for a series at the Angoulême comic festival amongst other awards. Just because you don't like the narrative tone of a book and it isn't up to your personal interests, you can't just go out and claim that it's mainstream opinion.

Personally I think that the killing joke is garbage and that Morrison is an overrated writer and most of his stories aren't as phenomenal or even as good as people make it out to be but that's my personal opinion and I can't claim it's general consensus simply off the fact that my friends and people I've talk too agree with me.

[frostedemma]

Personally I don't think Storm opposing Scott in Schism would be hypocritical like Kitty leading the X-men after IvsX when she was in space during the whole terrigent mist because Storm was the longest leader after Scott and has a long history of leading mutants and X-men, unlike Logan. Ororo also never made her traumatised former child soldier daughter join a black ops kill team.

I think it would have been really interesting if Emma was the one opposing Scott. It would make sense for Emma to be against sending children on kill teams and only killing people in self defence and if there's no other options after seeing to many of her students die. It would bring a new element to the opposing views, teacher vs tactital leader. Scott is the leader and was a former student but he was never really close to students and never really had to teach or lead them until the mid 2000's while Emma has always been close to students and seen first hand what effect going on missions and the toll it takes on students. Plus Emma is fiercely protective of her students in a way Xavier never was and no one can get between her and students safety, not even family. Plus it would of been nice to see Emma be in charge and take thinks in her own hands instead of being reduced to Scott lackey.

[Kingdom X]

Personally I don't think Storm opposing Scott in Schism would be hypocritical like Kitty leading the X-men after IvsX when she was in space during the whole terrigent mist because Storm was the longest leader after Scott and has a long history of leading mutants and X-men, unlike Logan. Ororo also never made her traumatised former child soldier daughter join a black ops kill team.

I think it would have been really interesting if Emma was the one opposing Scott. It would make sense for Emma to be against sending children on kill teams and only killing people in self defence and if there's no other options after seeing to many of her students die. It would bring a new element to the opposing views, teacher vs tactital leader. Scott is the leader and was a former student but he was never really close to students and never really had to teach or lead them until the mid 2000's while Emma has always been close to students and seen first hand what effect going on missions and the toll it takes on students. Plus Emma is fiercely protective of her students in a way Xavier never was and no one can get between her and students safety, not even family. Plus it would of been nice to see Emma be in charge and take thinks in her own hands instead of being reduced to Scott lackey.

That also would have been a better conclusion to their relationship. Great ideas!

[The tall man]

Personally I don't think Storm opposing Scott in Schism would be hypocritical like Kitty leading the X-men after IvsX when she was in space during the whole terrigent mist because Storm was the longest leader after Scott and has a long history of leading mutants and X-men, unlike Logan. Ororo also never made her traumatised former child soldier daughter join a black ops kill team.

I think it would have been really interesting if Emma was the one opposing Scott. It would make sense for Emma to be against sending children on kill teams and only killing people in self defence and if there's no other options after seeing to many of her students die. It would bring a new element to the opposing views, teacher vs tactital leader. Scott is the leader and was a former student but he was never really close to students and never really had to teach or lead them until the mid 2000's while Emma has always been close to students and seen first hand what effect going on missions and the toll it takes on students. Plus Emma is fiercely protective of her students in a way Xavier never was and no one can get between her and students safety, not even family. Plus it would of been nice to see Emma be in charge and take thinks in her own hands instead of being reduced to Scott lackey.

Absolutely no one would have followed Emma, maybe some students would have left with her but I don't see any X-man that would have let Emma lead them. As much as they had issues with Cyclops, they wouldn't pick Emma over him.

P.S: Maybe Beast would have picked Emma, he had a raging boner against Scott. So she gets one.

[Kisinith]

Schism would have been better with Storm in charge instead of Wolverine and opposed to Cyclops, however I don't think it should have been about kids. That part of the plot just doesn't work in the X-Men (or the MU actually).

[Hizashi]

I really don't understand your point and I think you're conflating your personal opinion and taste with general consensus. First you claim that Kamala and Riri aren't that popular and don't generate much sales and know you claim the quality of their stories is poor. Kamala didn't get off to a rough start, Ms. Marvel #1 got a seventh reprint, was received with critical acclaim from the start and received multiple award nomination and won a Hugo, an american book award and won the price for a series at the Angoulême comic festival amongst other awards. Just because you don't like the narrative tone of a book and it isn't up to your personal interests, you can't just go out and claim that it's mainstream opinion.

Personally I think that the killing joke is garbage and that Morrison is an overrated writer and most of his stories aren't as phenomenal or even as good as people make it out to be but that's my personal opinion and I can't claim it's general consensus simply off the fact that my friends and people I've talk too agree with me.

What general consensus? I didn't make any such claims that my opinion on those books was widely accepted. I also didn't make claims about their sales, I literally said I didn't know about their sales. I asked a rhetorical "who liked Bendis writing Riri?". And again, sales do not denote quality. I personally think that they both had bad first issues, and I can make that specific argument. You are inferring motivations in my opinions and saying I made claims that I demonstrably didn't. Lets just relax, I can try to clarify my point if you want.

I think that the Killing Joke is overrated, I think that Morrison is hit or miss even though I personally like some of his stuff - but funny enough this opinion of yours is actually pretty common.

[Omega Alpha]

Absolutely no one would have followed Emma, maybe some students would have left with her but I don't see any X-man that would have let Emma lead them. As much as they had issues with Cyclops, they wouldn't pick Emma over him.

P.S: Maybe Beast would have picked Emma, he had a raging boner against Scott. So she gets one.

Exactly. It was already implausible as it is to see so many X-men leaving on a bullshit excuse like this one, but with Emma?

[SpiderClops]

Schism was never going to make sense, no matter who opposed Scott. The central narrative of that story is that Cyclops is going morally bankrupt. Except the problem witht that is that Cyclops has always had a moral high ground than almost every other X-Men(yes, that includes Storm). No one had a leg to stand on when judging Scott. People had done far worse things for much less.

[frostedemma]

Absolutely no one would have followed Emma, maybe some students would have left with her but I don't see any X-man that would have let Emma lead them. As much as they had issues with Cyclops, they wouldn't pick Emma over him.

P.S: Maybe Beast would have picked Emma, he had a raging boner against Scott. So she gets one.

I mean it didn't make sense that so many people followed Logan since he's never lead anything and has a much more violent history than Logan but for plot convenience, everyone was on board. Emma knows that a lot of people would be reluctant to follow her so she'd recruit people to be the face of the opposing side who have much higher approval ratings, like say Ororo. Back during gen x everyone who opposed Emma teaching the next generation of mutants was appeased by the fact that Sean would co head the Massachusetts Academy. And while Storm will always have a smudge of dislike for Emma, when it comes to mutantkind she'd be willing to put their tense history aside (for a while at least) to work together.

[Omega Alpha]

I mean it didn't make sense that so many people followed Logan since he's never lead anything and has a much more violent history than Logan but for plot convenience, everyone was on board. Emma knows that a lot of people would be reluctant to follow her so she'd recruit people to be the face of the opposing side who have much higher approval ratings, like say Ororo. Back during gen x everyone who opposed Emma teaching the next generation of mutants was appeased by the fact that Sean would co head the Massachusetts Academy. And while Storm will always have a smudge of dislike for Emma, when it comes to mutantkind she'd be willing to put their tense history aside (for a while at least) to work together.

Nah, Logan was mostly well liked, Emma wasn't. It's not the same thing teaching half a dozen students with Xavier vouching and Banshee keeping an eye on her, and being leader of a massive group of the X-men and with a moral stance to boot.

Schism was never going to make sense, no matter who opposed Scott. The central narrative of that story is that Cyclops is going morally bankrupt. Except the problem witht that is that Cyclops has always had a moral high ground than almost every other X-Men(yes, that includes Storm). No one had a leg to stand on when judging Scott. People had done far worse things for much less.

Exactly.

The whole issue Marvel had was not Cyclops is morally bankrupt or the X-men are doing wrong things, but rather the X-men have deviated from what we liked in our childhoods and that is unforgivable. Compounded that with the dispute over movie rights and Joe Q being mad at Morrison, of course. Remember those were the same people that Spider-Man do a deal with the devil to get out of a marriage because it didn't fit their childhood view and made him look old

[Agent Z]

The central conceit of Schism was never going to work as long as the X-books continued to have teenagers fight supervillains. Hell, the story proves Logan wrong by having the kids fight and defeat a Sentinel while he and Scott are arguing.