Laura: X-23 Appreciation 2018

[TheCape]

TBH that would make the MOST sense given her past experiences.

Yeah, that's partially why i prefer to see her in that way.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

It wouldn't be unprecedented for two versions of a character to have different orientations. IE Governor-General Howlett vs. OG Logan. Someone else asked for clarification as well, so hopefully that shows enough interest for an answer on that point.

IMO, I think they should leave the comics iteration as-is, rather than introduce yet ANOTHER divisive retcon (the HfW reveal is already fracturing the base enough :-P ); Laura being straight, with Gabby picking up on some of the unused XME traits like her orientation.

I think they may have hinted at Gabby being gay in Red. Remember back in issue #2?


I'm lukewarm on the idea of Laura being bi, but I absolutely LOVE the idea that they might make Gabby gay.

[Ambaryerno]

I think they may have hinted at Gabby being gay in Red. Remember back in issue #2?

I know, this is what we were talking about. ;-P

[RoamingGnome8]

I agree, bi is also an option, and it's one that always gets overlooked.

I'd have to find it, but there was a tweet (I THINK it was last year) where someone asked him who he would hook Laura up with if he was in control, and he responded that it would be Hellion. If this was something he "always" planned it strikes me that would have been the time to say it.

Anyway, I had to bow out of the conversation on Twitter. Someone threw out the, "Well you must be a homophobe" card, and there's simply no point in trying to debate someone who pulls that sort of ad hominim strawman.

I wasn't sure in the tweet if it was just XME or it included both XME and 616 Laura; he could have been only talking about XME Laura.

To be honest, Laura being revealed to be a lesbian wouldn't really bother me, if Marvel ever does do it. While I really liked her with Hellion when KYost was writing, I personally don't think other writers will ever pick it up again and Liu heavily damaged that relationship.

I'd personally like to see Julian get character development on his own anyway, since his focal points of both Academy X and Childhoods End was 'being a love interest for someone'.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

Okay, let me just say this:
I hate hate HATE retcons that contradict what was canon.
If there's some sort of ambiguity that's fine. They did a good job with Bobby Drake, although I have to admit when I heard about that I wasn't super happy until I actually read the ANXM where it happened. If the writers do a good job with Laura being bi, that I'm fine with, although I'm not really hoping for it either, but I'm going to be pissed if they make her a full on lesbian when it's been established that she likes guys.
But yeah, I'm 100% on board with Gabby.

[Beaubier]

Okay, let me just say this:
I hate hate HATE retcons that contradict what was canon.
If there's some sort of ambiguity that's fine. They did a good job with Bobby Drake, although I have to admit when I heard about that I wasn't super happy until I actually read the ANXM where it happened. If the writers do a good job with Laura being bi, that I'm fine with, although I'm not really hoping for it either, but I'm going to be pissed if they make her a full on lesbian when it's been established that she likes guys.
But yeah, I'm 100% on board with Gabby.

Yeah. I feel like if Laura were to come out as gay at this point, it would feel too much like a retread of Bobby’s story. Gabby realizes that she’s gay, and her journey into exploring her sexuality makes Laura realize her own. Way too much like young Iceman making adult Iceman confront what he’s suppressed all these years. Coming out as bisexual would feel less like that. Laura never had said that she is exclusively attracted to men on panel. People assume she’s straight because she’s only been shown to have romantic attraction to men, so she’s “straight by default. I’d also prefer it to be a casual admittance by her, and not a huge deal, if it were to happen.

I’ve seen a post claiming that now Laura joins the ranks of Kitty and Rachel as intended to be queer by her creator but suppressed by Marvel, but the difference is Claremont wrote in tons of subtext and K/Y did not, although they could have. Instead they had her develop romantic interest in a dude. The most subtext Laura has had was in Liu’s Book, and you could tack that up to vampires having erotic subtext by nature. So, I think I’ve decided to take what Kyle had said about it with a grain of salt.

[Ambaryerno]

Okay, let me just say this:
I hate hate HATE retcons that contradict what was canon.
If there's some sort of ambiguity that's fine. They did a good job with Bobby Drake, although I have to admit when I heard about that I wasn't super happy until I actually read the ANXM where it happened. If the writers do a good job with Laura being bi, that I'm fine with, although I'm not really hoping for it either, but I'm going to be pissed if they make her a full on lesbian when it's been established that she likes guys.
But yeah, I'm 100% on board with Gabby.

I disagree about Bobby. The scene is literally "Bobby hits on Magik, Jean tells him to STFU because he's gay, and Bobby says, 'Yeah, you're right.'" Like many things Bendis did — IE hooking up Laura and Warren in the first place — it came about without development or build up.

Yeah. I feel like if Laura were to come out as gay at this point, it would feel too much like a retread of Bobby’s story. Gabby realizes that she’s gay, and her journey into exploring her sexuality makes Laura realize her own. Way too much like young Iceman making adult Iceman confront what he’s suppressed all these years. Coming out as bisexual would feel less like that. Laura never had said that she is exclusively attracted to men on panel. People assume she’s straight because she’s only been shown to have romantic attraction to men, so she’s “straight by default. I’d also prefer it to be a casual admittance by her, and not a huge deal, if it were to happen.

I’ve seen a post claiming that now Laura joins the ranks of Kitty and Rachel as intended to be queer by her creator but suppressed by Marvel, but the difference is Claremont wrote in tons of subtext and K/Y did not, although they could have. Instead they had her develop romantic interest in a dude. The most subtext Laura has had was in Liu’s Book, and you could tack that up to vampires having erotic subtext by nature. So, I think I’ve decided to take what Kyle had said about it with a grain of salt.

Yeah, the poster who went ad hominin on me tried to dismiss my arguments about allowing Gabby to have a plot to herself with how great it would be for Gabby to be a means of Laura to recognize her true self. 'Cause y'know, it's not like there would ALSO be a wonderful message behind Laura acknowledge that even though Gabby is different, she's still her sister and will support her. Because there's a LOT of LGBTQ who don't get that from their family. Never mind the fact that he'd basically taking GABBY'S story, and using it as a prop for LAURA (I seem to remember some criticism around here along those lines both Logan vs. Laura and Laura vs. Gabby...) I wanted to make that point, but as soon as that individual started using my arguments to make accusations about ME I was done with that conversation. You literally can't continue a debate in those circumstances. If someone else would like to address those points on my behalf I'll link you to the relevant tweet, tho.

It's interesting you brought up Claremont, because that's another part of this whole thing: Creators say a LOT about intent. Claremont intended Logan to be Sabretooth's son. Someone else intended him to be an ACTUAL wolverine that was mutated. KYost themselves have said they intended Laura to remain perpetually a child (which TBH makes no sense. Logan's HF didn't activate as young as she did, but he was still no older than his mid-teens. He still grew up at a normal pace. It's only once he reached maturity that his aging froze). Hell, you want a REALLY good example, look at how many times George Lucas has changed his claims about what he intended with the Star Wars saga. There's a reason Word Of God is considered trivia by TV Tropes. It's nice information, but it has no bearing whatsoever on canon.

Edit:

Also, just a random observation:

If Laura were to be retconned to be gay or bi, it would mean none of Logan's offspring are straight (Jimmy doesn't count. AU).

Edit:

Also, also:

Taylor "Liked" my Tweet about allowing Gabby to have this development for herself.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

Let me rephrase: they did a good job with the justification and avoiding contradictions, in my opinion.

[XCE]

Instead of trying to quote a bunch of different posts, I'll just try to address some points I've seen made:

1) Kyle was clearly speaking about the comic book version as well as the cartoon version, and later even explicity replied to say as much.

2) I'm pretty sure Kyle never said he "shipped" Laura with Hellion.

3) It's a pretty different situation to Iceman. He had a LOT more history, decades worth of it. Laura is still a relatively young character and people sometimes take a while to figure out their orientation. And you could easily make sense of it in terms of her past history. One of the reasons I never liked the Hellion "ship" is that Laura was very far from emotionally mature and stable at the time, and her romantic interest was like the affection of a rescue dog that's been abused and finally receives kind treatment. And once she goes on her journey of self-discovery in Liu's book, she realizes that she's not attracted to him in that way. As for Angel, you could argue it was a similar situation. She was fresh from another traumatic experience and he was the only person to take an interest in her and show her kindness when she was struggling. Then you had the whole "fake it till you make it" thing by Hopeless where she was apparently trying to be a certain way to make the relationship work. Could certainly extend to trying to make it work despite coming to realize that sexual orientation is leaning in other directions.

For the record, I would welcome this development with open arms. It just feels right somehow. The fact that her clone is pretty much "out" already also supports it.

[Ambaryerno]

2) I'm pretty sure Kyle never said he "shipped" Laura with Hellion.

Kyle was asked, I think last year, on Twitter who he would match Laura with if he had his choice, and he replied Hellion. I would think that if this was something he always planned, that would have been the time to say something about it.

[Ambaryerno]

Gah, just when you think the forums are working again...

[XCE]

Kyle was asked, I think last year, on Twitter who he would match Laura with if he had his choice, and he replied Hellion. I would think that if this was something he always planned, that would have been the time to say something about it.

I think I would have remembered something like that. So unless you can link that tweet, I'm pretty sure it never happened.

[Ambaryerno]

I think I would have remembered something like that. So unless you can link that tweet, I'm pretty sure it never happened.

Now you know that finding a tweet that old is going to be a needle in a haystack. And that's even assuming I'm remembering the date range correct (it wasn't RECENT recent, but we're not going back 5-6 years, either. I'm pretty sure it was post-Secret Wars).

Also, I reread the original Tweet, and upon a more careful look it actually looks like this is what he would do as a NEW development if it was his story, not something that was planned and abandoned/denied/whatever in the past. Which puts it in a bit different context. For one, it's purely hypothetical; Kyle isn't writing her so her story isn't his to direct. There's also the matter of Marvel Editorial themselves, who has the ultimate say. So even if he'd WANT to do it, he might not be ALLOWED to do it. At least not as anything other than an "What If?" or AU story.

In either case, I still say that Gabby is the single best reason why it shouldn't happen, and there's two major points why:

1) As already discussed, it would mean undermining Gabby's own story. Gabby is a very new character; a virtual blank-slate. One of the biggest criticisms she's currently facing is that she doesn't exist as much more than a foil for Laura, and to be the comic relief to her straight man. There's not really much TO her that's her own, since her powers and appearance all come from Laura. All she's left with is that Gabby has a more gregarious personality, but otherwise she's currently very much reliant on building off Laura.

Giving Laura and Gabby differing orientations offers Gabby a hook for character development that will help further differentiate her from Laura, and help flesh her out into more of a rounded, independent character. It gives her a path that's more uniquely her own. Laura can still have a role supporting her, but it ultimately allows Gabby an avenue to flourish into her own character. If you turn around and say, "Well, if Gabby is gay, then Laura should be, too. And we can use Gabby coming out as a means for Laura to realize her own self," well then you're taking away what makes Gabby stand apart from Laura, and using her to prop up Laura's development instead. Once again, Gabby is stripped of her unique character and development, tying her right back into Laura's identity again.

2) You risk undermining LAURA HERSELF. One of Laura's central character narratives has been finding her identity. On the one hand, you have her conflict between being a person or a weapon. However another long-running thread is her identity as an INDIVIDUAL. IE, the part in X-Force where she tells Elixir clones aren't "real," learning to fine her own answers in the Liu series, or her observations about the nature of clones in the Tamaki book. By saying that because Gabby is her clone and Gabby is gay, therefore Laura must ALSO be gay, you're stripping her of her ability to determine her own unique self. This would SERIOUSLY undermine a very key part of Laura's ongoing development. Yes, you could make arguments about Laura coming out on her own individually, but so long as Gabby is around you have that shadow hanging over it.

[XCE]

Now you know that finding a tweet that old is going to be a needle in a haystack. And that's even assuming I'm remembering the date range correct

Or the reason you can't find it now is that it never happened.

Kyle isn't writing her

Not currently, no, but he is her creator. That means he created her appearance, her personality and, yes, her sexual orientation. That's why his voice on the matter is more fact than opinion. It's exactly why many feel the recent retcon regarding Laura's genetic origin was disrespectful given that Kyle has commented very clearly on that subject previously.

By saying that because Gabby is her clone and Gabby is gay, therefore Laura must ALSO be gay

I never said that Gabby being gay means Laura must also be gay. I just said it's a fact that supports the notion and is something that contributes to it making sense. It's like a puzzle piece that fits.

As for your argument that it undermines Gabby's story...ehhh. Makes about as much sense as me arguing that Laura should be gay because Logan is heterosexual to avoid her building off him too much.

you're stripping her of her ability to determine her own unique self. This would SERIOUSLY undermine a very key part of Laura's ongoing development

Sexual orientation isn't a choice, so to bring up Laura's choices and agency seems weird. Really, all this just sounds like clutching at straws and trying to come up with arguments against because you personally strongly prefer Laura not to be gay.

[RoamingGnome8]

Instead of trying to quote a bunch of different posts, I'll just try to address some points I've seen made:

1) Kyle was clearly speaking about the comic book version as well as the cartoon version, and later even explicity replied to say as much.

2) I'm pretty sure Kyle never said he "shipped" Laura with Hellion.

3) It's a pretty different situation to Iceman. He had a LOT more history, decades worth of it. Laura is still a relatively young character and people sometimes take a while to figure out their orientation. And you could easily make sense of it in terms of her past history. One of the reasons I never liked the Hellion "ship" is that Laura was very far from emotionally mature and stable at the time, and her romantic interest was like the affection of a rescue dog that's been abused and finally receives kind treatment. And once she goes on her journey of self-discovery in Liu's book, she realizes that she's not attracted to him in that way. As for Angel, you could argue it was a similar situation. She was fresh from another traumatic experience and he was the only person to take an interest in her and show her kindness when she was struggling. Then you had the whole "fake it till you make it" thing by Hopeless where she was apparently trying to be a certain way to make the relationship work. Could certainly extend to trying to make it work despite coming to realize that sexual orientation is leaning in other directions.

For the record, I would welcome this development with open arms. It just feels right somehow. The fact that her clone is pretty much "out" already also supports it.

That is strange if Kyle planned it with 616 Laura; since there was barely ANY subtext there other than maybe a little bit with Cessily, but even that's pretty arguable.

Some people DO come out later in life, and Laura is pretty young- so I don't think it would be that much of a retcon as many felt Bobby was.

That being said, I do think the less controversial choice would be to go with Laura being bisexual.