When should SHAZAM! enter the picture in DC continuity?

[Robotman]

I don't understand this need to keep Billy YOUNG. Kids grow up...they become teenagers, and then they become adults. To not allow Billy to become an adult is to essentially remove a elements that kids can identify with. Plus, you're turning Billy into a magical creature (which was done via the NEW FRONTIER series by Darwyn Cooke, in which he, Zatanna, Doctor Fate and the Phantom Stranger were having lunch...on the Moon). Heck, even after DC acquired the Fawcett imprint, Billy was allowed to age, as evident in both the SHAZAM! cartoons and in the live-action show in the 1970s (the one with Michael Gray and Jackson Boswick). Eventually, Billy WILL become the Guardian of the Rock of Eternity. But, until then, he has to have a full life as a mortal, including growing up (with all the challenges involved).

We don’t need these characters to grow up in real time. They can mature and have countless adventures but the core concepts should stay the same. Cap Marvel/Shazam is about a childhood dream come true. Not just putting on a cape and pretending to fly in the backyard but actually saying a magic word and becoming like Superman. That why Billy should always be young. If he’s a 20 year old and can change into a 30 year old superhero it takes away a lot of the fun that the character represents.

[phantom1592]

I think there's some wiggle room you can work with. I think you can place Billy anywhere from ten to fifteen and still make it work. But beyond that, yeah he's too old for those core themes to remain intact (and 15 is pushing it). Which is part of why I like him on his own earth where time can stand still.

Now, since DC has seemed reluctant in the past to let the "heroic age" go beyond a ten year continuity, you should be able to put Billy in around year 5 (about COIE, like a lot of us have said) and get away with it because you'll reboot again before things get stretched too far.

But if you really want something in the main continuity to keep Billy from aging, it's gotta be something that extends beyond just him and the Shazamily. Otherwise his secret identity is toast and he's going to have to start traveling, never staying put long enough for people to realize he's not growing up (and at that age sometimes six months will see huge changes in a kid). So you gotta bring back the idea that Fawcett is trapped in time. Which brings up a lot of interesting questions about the city population and how it operates with the rest of the world.

No matter what you're going to find complications and questions if you try to address it. Since DC is likely to reboot at the "ten year continuity" mark anyway, it might be better to just ignore it, fudge it a little, and wait for the reboot to make the problem go away for another twenty years.

yeah, there's some wiggle room but the key to using it correctly is to freeze ALL of DC. You can't have Billy start at age 15 with Dick Grayson then have a One Year Later time time jump and have Tim Drake in College and Damian starting high school... Putting him closer to 10 gives a little more room to play vague with ages, but starting too late and he's lost what makes him special.

We don’t need these characters to grow up in real time. They can mature and have countless adventures but the core concepts should stay the same. Cap Marvel/Shazam is about a childhood dream come true. Not just putting on a cape and pretending to fly in the backyard but actually saying a magic word and becoming like Superman. That why Billy should always be young. If he’s a 20 year old and can change into a 30 year old superhero it takes away a lot of the fun that the character represents.

Agreed. We've seen TOO MANY characters age up and it's nearly crippled the DC universe. Legacies having legacies who pass on their mantle to new legacies... etc. etc... This push to have all characters age up is tedious.

[Adekis]

Perhaps because I saw it first, I liked Michael Gray's version best. Gray's Billy was a young adult...someone who was already grown up in some ways, but still had a youthful earnestness and occasional naivete to him.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Billy is also a young man in the Republic serial "Adventures of Captain Marvel," and I thought it worked pretty well there. Also, I think the "young man looking for America on the road" conception of Billy is really interesting and has some legs if anyone were ever to bring it back as a period piece. Maybe I'm just interested in it because I only saw the Shazam! tv show for the first time recently, but it struck a chord for sure! I'd be interested in seeing more in a similar vein.

I think it's possible that people have a strong gut-reaction against an adult Billy because they're afraid of it turning into a Micky Moran / Marvelman situation where losing the child mind means losing the whimsy and becoming a very depressing story, but frankly that seems pretty baseless to me.

I agree with all of this. I'd much rather have the JSA (and some select others, why not?) on earth-2, Shazam and the Fawcett guys on earth-5 (and some select others, why not?), and maybe even the Charlton gang on earth.....whatever. 4?

And not only do we need more nazi-punching Freddy Freeman, but we need more Captain Nazi for Freddy to punch! I love that villain! He's someone you never have to feel sympathy for, or try to rationalize his motivations.....he's a super powered nazi. There's nothing you need to know except he deserves to be punched, often!

And correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Freddy Jewish? If I'm not just making that up in my head I'd like to see that showcased a little more. Barry Allen is Jewish and Hal Jordan is half but neither ever *do* anything with it. It'd be cool to see that faith get some love and representation.

Yeah, the parallel worlds are underrated. I think Charlton is Earth 4, though probably changing it so as not to be Watchmen-lite as in Multiversity is a good idea... but I digress.

Yeah, Captain Nazi is a fantastic villain. I think a neo-Nazi re-imagining could be a good use of the character in terms of crafting a villain you absolutely love to hate, and in terms of giving Freddy his old arch-nemesis back. As a side note, despite later DC books framing Captain Marvel as needing to stop Freddy from "going too far" and trying to kill Captain Nazi, I absolutely love how the Fawcett books are just like "oh man, Captain Nazi is the worst and Captain Marvel Jr is going to try to kill him to the best of his ability in every single issue" and it's only ever treated as an unequivocal good. Which it would be. Because he's Captain Nazi.

As for whether Freddy is Jewish, I have no idea. I don't think I've ever read that, I always just thought he hated Nazis because Captain Nazi killed his grandfather on the personal level, and also they're Nazis and every intelligent being in existence really ought to hate them. But it also wouldn't surprise me if Freddy was Jewish. A quick google search reveals conjecture that he might be, but no real source.

[dswynne]

yeah, there's some wiggle room but the key to using it correctly is to freeze ALL of DC. You can't have Billy start at age 15 with Dick Grayson then have a One Year Later time time jump and have Tim Drake in College and Damian starting high school... Putting him closer to 10 gives a little more room to play vague with ages, but starting too late and he's lost what makes him special.




Agreed. We've seen TOO MANY characters age up and it's nearly crippled the DC universe. Legacies having legacies who pass on their mantle to new legacies... etc. etc... This push to have all characters age up is tedious.

Then Billy becomes a magical creature like Peter Pan. How's that relatable to kids? And as we can see in the latest issue of SHAZAM, there's a dark aspect in wanting to stay a kid...

Also, segregating characters is silly. For one, we have a multiverse with the classic Marvel Family, and now you have another set of characters to experiment with. Nothing wrong with that...

[RickWJ324]

A little off-topic, but I just wanted to say that I watched the first episode of the SHAZAM! tv show from the 70's last night. I grew up watching that show when it first aired and haven't seen it since the 70's. What a trip down memory lane it was to see it again after all these decades!! Glad to see it on the DC Universe site.

Ok.. back to the subject at hand.....

[Flash Gordon]

I don't understand this need to keep Billy YOUNG. Kids grow up...they become teenagers, and then they become adults. To not allow Billy to become an adult is to essentially remove a elements that kids can identify with. Plus, you're turning Billy into a magical creature (which was done via the NEW FRONTIER series by Darwyn Cooke, in which he, Zatanna, Doctor Fate and the Phantom Stranger were having lunch...on the Moon). Heck, even after DC acquired the Fawcett imprint, Billy was allowed to age, as evident in both the SHAZAM! cartoons and in the live-action show in the 1970s (the one with Michael Gray and Jackson Boswick). Eventually, Billy WILL become the Guardian of the Rock of Eternity. But, until then, he has to have a full life as a mortal, including growing up (with all the challenges involved).

Aging Billy Batson defeats the purpose of the character.

[qwerty3w]

Then Billy becomes a magical creature like Peter Pan. How's that relatable to kids? And as we can see in the latest issue of SHAZAM, there's a dark aspect in wanting to stay a kid...

It's no more magical and unrelatable than the majority of adult superheroes never age into their 40s in the main continuity, and some scientists argue that aging is important for renewal of population thus necessary for good evolvability for a species.

[Ascended]

Yeah, Captain Nazi is a fantastic villain. I think a neo-Nazi re-imagining could be a good use of the character in terms of crafting a villain you absolutely love to hate, and in terms of giving Freddy his old arch-nemesis back. As a side note, despite later DC books framing Captain Marvel as needing to stop Freddy from "going too far" and trying to kill Captain Nazi, I absolutely love how the Fawcett books are just like "oh man, Captain Nazi is the worst and Captain Marvel Jr is going to try to kill him to the best of his ability in every single issue" and it's only ever treated as an unequivocal good. Which it would be. Because he's Captain Nazi.

I liked the idea that he was the "spirit" of nazi-ism, the same way Uncle Sam is the spirit of America. Makes for an easy explanation for where he came from, why he's still the same age, etc.

[dswynne]

Aging Billy Batson defeats the purpose of the character.

Fine, then Billy is Peter Pan. Also, just because Billy was a child when he started out, that does not mean he stays a kid. Even CC Beck aged Billy and the rest kids to teenagers.

[Flash Gordon]

Fine, then Billy is Peter Pan. Also, just because Billy was a child when he started out, that does not mean he stays a kid. Even CC Beck aged Billy and the rest kids to teenagers.

Okay he's Peter Pan, so what? Kids love the adventures of Peter Pan still.

You can do your older Billy Batson stories in separate joints, but honestly the main stuff should be all ages and accessible to kids- because he's all about childhood wishfullfillment.

Not everything needs to be marketed at the desires of adults. We dont need to see Billy Batson with a mortgage.

[qwerty3w]

Fine, then Billy is Peter Pan. Also, just because Billy was a child when he started out, that does not mean he stays a kid. Even CC Beck aged Billy and the rest kids to teenagers.

A fictional character in a long running franchise usually stays in the same age group only in a meta sense, it's not like there will not be a time when the character get older within the narrative, it's just that time will always be future and never become present.

[phantom1592]

Okay he's Peter Pan, so what? Kids love the adventures of Peter Pan still.

You can do your older Billy Batson stories in separate joints, but honestly the main stuff should be all ages and accessible to kids- because he's all about childhood wishfullfillment.

Not everything needs to be marketed at the desires of adults. We dont need to see Billy Batson with a mortgage.

LOL! Yeah... that was my first thought too. Since was Peter Pan something kids didn't like or relate to???

Secondly... Having a character mentally age and feel they should be respected more but looked down on because they appear to young?? Why wouldn't kids relate to that?

Kids relate to young characters. Everytime they age a young character up... they end up having to replace him with ANOTHER young character. Just leave Billy there. He starts out the gate with Mary, Freddy and a whole 'Family'... we don't need him falling into the same legacy trap that the Bat-family and Flash Family fell into. Best case scenario... never GIVE him an age. He's a kid... he's a Boy... He's a child... However you want to describe it. Just don't say He started at 14, skipped a year, and spent a year in space and a year in another dimension. an I guess he needs to be 17 now... Just say he was a boy, and now a slightly older boy... but still a boy and roll with it.


IMO Every character needs that special something that makes them unique. Captain Marvel has always suffered that stigma of being a Superman Clone... the child transformation/wish fulfillment is what makes him unique. If you age him up... give him a job (probably still a reporter for WHIZ) The differences blur to much and he becomes too mundane.

[Mutant God]

I think Billy is as old as Tim Drake but became Shazam before Tim became Robin.

[dswynne]

Okay he's Peter Pan, so what? Kids love the adventures of Peter Pan still.

You can do your older Billy Batson stories in separate joints, but honestly the main stuff should be all ages and accessible to kids- because he's all about childhood wishfullfillment.

Not everything needs to be marketed at the desires of adults. We don't need to see Billy Batson with a mortgage.

So...adults can't enjoy reading Peter Pan???

Look, I'm not being a troll about this, but I don't like the idea of a false choice, where a character HAS to be a certain way in order to appreciate said character regardless of the age of the reader. First, I became a fan of "SHAZAM!" based on the live-action show in the 1970s. Billy was clearly not a child, but an older teenager (ignoring the actor's real age) who, at that point, had already been Captain Marvel, and was going on a road trip with his "mentor" to continue being a hero. Billy not being a kid did not take away from him being a hero, or a good person. And, best of all, Billy still had to transform into Captain Marvel.

Secondly, you look at certain books, such as "The Chronicles of Narnia", the Tolkien Book Series, or even the Harry Potter series. THOSE books had their characters grow and, well, age over time. Some became better from their experience, some worse, but the core essence remain the same. Keeping Billy a child robs the character a plethora of story potential. How does Billy handle his first love? Can he earn the respect of his fellow superheroes, knowing that the "World's Mightiest Mortal" is only a child? In fact, why not just stick Billy onto the Teen Titans- no, sorry about that. Billy isn't a teenager. Stick him to the kids' table.

All I am saying is that Billy and the kids should be allow to age, however long it takes. He starts out as a child when the Justice League forms, around 8-10 year old, when he gets his superpowers. After that, he can progress as the story permits.

But, for real, if I come off too strong about this topic, it's just that I want Billy to be taken seriously, and not relegated to the corner of the proverbial DCU, where he'll be used even LESS than now. That's all. Peace.

[Lee]

A kid who transforms into a powerful adult is the core premise of the series. Nothing is gained from abandoning it.