With Allegations and Revelations of Warren Ellis and Scott Lobdell, Question.

[JB]

pretty true, i got rid of warren ellis excalibur since it only a 2 half year run compare to nearly decade of lobdell x-men, not mention lobdell stories are hit miss and to be honest, im more attached to the team look and Joe Mad's artwork, and yes I love the x-men franchise more than Lobdell written issues. Fabian's X-force and adjectliveless x-men run(which also for the most part, connected to lobdell uncanny before Fabian leaving late 95), the 90s video games(especially by Capcom) and the animated series of course.

So yeah, hang onto them unless you get to a point where you feel like letting them go like you did the Ellis work. That seemed like an easy decision for you so until you feel the same for the other work, I'd say keep them.

[Will Evans]

It's kind of like with Bill Cosby, can one separate his comedy from his actions. I remember that Seinfeld got some flak for saying that he could, that he could still laugh at his jokes and such despite what he had done and all...

Agreed. Let’s not cancel Pete Wisdom for something his creator did.

[Rzerox21xx]

Agreed. Let’s not cancel Pete Wisdom for something his creator did.

well Paul Cornell did great things with Pete

[Technopriest]

I always found the Kitty/Wisdom relationship creepy as all get out, especially considering that Wisdom was way older, had almost no redeeming characteristic as a character, and was pretty much an Ellis self-insert so the author could sleep with Kitty who he admitted had a crush on growing up. Kitty was pretty much grown to adulthood by Ellis so he could go ahead with the relationship. And sincerely, it is not difficult for me to pretty much ignore both Ellis and Lobdell contributions to the X-canon, as I (unlike some people) was never a fan of their X-work at all (Generation-X being the exception). Ellis pretty much committed character assassination with both Colossus and Forge, wrote the majority of the Excalibur crew as idiots (yeah, I am pretty sure that surrogate older brother Kurt would have been ok with Wisdom advances toward Kitty or turning against Piotr), and took off the table the best black male to come out of the 90s by killing off Synch (of course he is a Lobdell creation so I will get to that next).
When it comes to the characters that they created, Wisdom sincerely is the easiest for Marvel to just bench permanently. He is not a popular character, he pretty much exist in the periphery of the X-Men, and other authors just wanted to use him because he is an Ellis creation more than on the merits of the characters itself. The Lobdell creations are more problematic, as they are fully integrated into the X-Men mythos and have fans, they were not self insert of the creator to creep on an underage character, and have evolve the out the years. I think that fans can still enjoy those characters independently of their creator because of that.

[Su_Whisterfield]

well Paul Cornell did great things with Pete

Paul is a personal friend, I can vouch that he’s one of the good guys.

[Will Evans]

I always found the Kitty/Wisdom relationship creepy as all get out, especially considering that Wisdom was way older, had almost no redeeming characteristic as a character, and was pretty much an Ellis self-insert so the author could sleep with Kitty who he admitted had a crush on growing up. Kitty was pretty much grown to adulthood by Ellis so he could go ahead with the relationship. And sincerely, it is not difficult for me to pretty much ignore both Ellis and Lobdell contributions to the X-canon, as I (unlike some people) was never a fan of their X-work at all (Generation-X being the exception). Ellis pretty much committed character assassination with both Colossus and Forge, wrote the majority of the Excalibur crew as idiots (yeah, I am pretty sure that surrogate older brother Kurt would have been ok with Wisdom advances toward Kitty or turning against Piotr), and took off the table the best black male to come out of the 90s by killing off Synch (of course he is a Lobdell creation so I will get to that next).
When it comes to the characters that they created, Wisdom sincerely is the easiest for Marvel to just bench permanently. He is not a popular character, he pretty much exist in the periphery of the X-Men, and other authors just wanted to use him because he is an Ellis creation more than on the merits of the characters itself. The Lobdell creations are more problematic, as they are fully integrated into the X-Men mythos and have fans, they were not self insert of the creator to creep on an underage character, and have evolve the out the years. I think that fans can still enjoy those characters independently of their creator because of that.

Eh. Not to go off topic. But Kitty was due to start aging up at that time. Since then we’ve had Husk get with Archangel and Monet get with Sabretooth. Cannonball married with a kid. Wolfsbane given birth etc.

Meanwhile, poor Jubilee is still seen as child like despite being an adult. She’s long overdo for a more mature relationship herself.

[Vishop]

Ellis's entire bibliography is better than the combined Dawn of X writers. I have enjoyed his Transmet and Planetary but what he did is just profoundly wrong.

[Technopriest]

Eh. Not to go off topic. But Kitty was due to start aging up at that time. Since then we’ve had Husk get with Archangel and Monet get with Sabretooth. Cannonball married with a kid. Wolfsbane given birth etc.

Meanwhile, poor Jubilee is still seen as child like despite being an adult. She’s long overdo for a more mature relationship herself.

The point is not whether she was due to start aging up or not, but the fact that it just reads worse than before due to what Ellis has been accused of doing, it was not Kitty just growing up and getting involved with someone older, but she went from being a minor to being 18 just so said author could write that hook up. And 2 wrongs don't make a right, neither Monet not Husk should have been involved romantically with those characters (I mean Austen of all people made a joke about it on panel in the same series)

[Technopriest]

Ellis's entire bibliography is better than the combined Dawn of X writers. I have enjoyed his Transmet and Planetary but what he did is just profoundly wrong.

He has done some amazing work outside of the X-titles, I just don't find his X-work particularly good, and I find his Excalibur run incredibly overrated, like it gets more props for the kind of work Ellis did afterwards than its own merits. Same with Wisdom as a character, I find that he gots more props for being an Ellis creation than an actually good or interesting character himself. He always read as Constantine light.

[Frobisher]

Ellis's entire bibliography is better than the combined Dawn of X writers. I have enjoyed his Transmet and Planetary but what he did is just profoundly wrong.

I feel the same way. Always avoided his online presence though as there was definitely something creepy about that whole scene. People must have had some clue what was going on, but turned a blind eye for fear of being shunned or considered a party pooper. Ellis always had a keen critical eye for corrupt power structures, but he really needed to turn that eye inward.

[Technopriest]

I feel the same way. Always avoided his online presence though as there was definitely something creepy about that whole scene. People must have had some clue what was going on, but turned a blind eye for fear of being shunned or considered a party pooper. Ellis always had a keen critical eye for corrupt power structures, but he really needed to turn that eye inward.

Humans are deeply complex individuals, to the point where some can really feel strongly about some wrongs while ignoring their own deep flaws. I have met people like that, people that feel strongly about certain injustices while at the same time they treat others like crap. Remember that no one is a villain in their own stories. It seems that certain individuals with these predatory instincts are also the ones that hold themselves higher than the rest. Like with Gerard Jones (try to read his Prime now), some of his work will read differently after knowing what he has been accused of.

[Will Evans]

The point is not whether she was due to start aging up or not, but the fact that it just reads worse than before due to what Ellis has been accused of doing, it was not Kitty just growing up and getting involved with someone older, but she went from being a minor to being 18 just so said author could write that hook up. And 2 wrongs don't make a right, neither Monet not Husk should have been involved romantically with those characters (I mean Austen of all people made a joke about it on panel in the same series)

I mean it’s not that uncommon.

Marv Wolfman did the same thing with Donna Troy in New Teen Titans and making a creator insert with Terry.

And that was way worse because Terry was Donna’s Professor.

[Technopriest]

I mean it’s not that uncommon.

Marv Wolfman did the same thing with Donna Troy in New Teen Titans and making a creator insert with Terry.

And that was way worse because Terry was Donna’s Professor.

Yes, and if allegations had surfaced about Wolfman, do you think that that would read the same?

[Technopriest]

I sincerely think that a lot of these type of stories would not fly or be allowed to be publish now, even if the author has not been accused of any type of predatory behavior. I really doubt that Colossus and Kitty relationship is something that would be allowed now (their first one) and they were both teenagers then, but the age gap would still be a huge issue.

[Icefanatic]

In retrospect, seeing that he created a self insert to sleep with Kitty, who she came of age precisely in order to do so ...

That's not just creepy, it's pathetic as hell.