Wonder Woman #39

[Vanguard-01]

This will be interesting to see. Given the pace of the arc so far, it seems like a toss up.

I will concede. The thing that irritates me the most about this run is, indeed, the slow pace. I won't lie, this story should be moving faster. And given the time we have left, it IS possible that it will take more than this arc. Unless the battle with Donna and Hekate is very short, it may be merely the first chapter of a longer story.

I hope not. Azz's run has left me with little patience for long, slow-paced stories. But it may happen.

[Darius]

Like every cop, judge also has. follow laws isn't 100% free of flaws

He breaks dozens of them ... Like vigilantism and God only knows how many assault and batteries or how much evidence he corrupts in his determination to stop his villains. The point is BM could do more good as Bruce Wayne holding public office, or as WW says, by ENDING some of these threats.

[Darius]

Agreed.

It's a common saying for a lot of folks in the US because the US is predominantly Christian and was moreso over the decades folks have grown up. I'm an American, not a Christian, and say 'oh my god' without thinking about it.

Diana grew up in a place where the gods visited her in person and she now *is* a god.

Also, considering how disassociated she has been in her entire run from the rest of the world (three years of a book without a single non-immortal appearing outside of a generic club scene), there is no indication that she spends enough time with average people to pick up such phrases as 'awesome' and 'oh my god.'

Well she also spent 5 years hanging with Steve and his crew ... An 18 year old is bound to pick up some bad language habits

[Sirzechs]

He breaks dozens of them ... Like vigilantism and God only knows how many assault and batteries or how much evidence he corrupts in his determination to stop his villains. The point is BM could do more good as Bruce Wayne holding public office, or as WW says, by ENDING some of these threats.

Yep there's a few stories that refers to Batman's enemies as victims of his type of justice, while he doesn't kill, he does beat the stuffing out of them.

[Frank]

How hard is this?

The Amazons are savages. They've been shown as being actively hostile toward Diana for attempting to drag them into the civilized world.

Angry reactionaries will flock to the banner of ANYONE who offers them a way out of being forced to change. Derinoe opposes Diana? Yay, Derinoe! Derinoe has provided a champion Derinoe promises will stop Diana and allow the Amazons to continue raiding, murdering, and selling babies into slavery? Yay, Donna!

It really is that simple. They may have doubts about Donna's origins. They don't care. They want to keep their barbaric way of life, and anyone who comes along and promises to grant them that wish will be viewed as a savior. They can worry about Donna's origins after Diana is defeated and their savagery safeguarded.

So, the amazons are stupid AND savage. Great. AND Diana embraces them and wants to rule them. Even better. Yeah, those are exactly the kind of amazons I want to read and care about.

They've often been portrayed as xenophobic and resistant to change, but at least they were simultaneously cultured, intelligent, and largely possessed of a degree of integrity. Now they're just set extras from a Conan movie. Like I said, Azz started the character assassination of the Amazons with the "sea rape & slaughter," but Finch is just running with it.

Diana has always been "the best of the Amazons," but when one is the best of crap, then the bar hasn't really been set very high, has it? I prefer my Amazons to be spirited, smart, imperfect, and capable. These Amazons are coming across as a savage herd of cattle.

[Sacred Knight]

Well...they've been savage for going on four years now. I know its not a popular characterization but that's the way it was way before Mrs. Finch came on board regardless. Though I fail to see how Diana embracing them and wanting to rule them is bad on her part. They are her family, one she is trying to change for the better. How is that not textbook Wonder Woman?

but at least they were simultaneously cultured, intelligent, and largely possessed of a degree of integrity.

...Where? I mean pre-New 52 sure, but since then? I sure havent' seen it.

I prefer my Amazons to be spirited, smart, imperfect, and capable. These Amazons are coming across as a savage herd of cattle.

Me too. But again this is nothing new. They've been this way since September 2011.

[Vanguard-01]

So, the amazons are stupid AND savage. Great. AND Diana embraces them and wants to rule them. Even better. Yeah, those are exactly the kind of amazons I want to read and care about.

They've often been portrayed as xenophobic and resistant to change, but at least they were simultaneously cultured, intelligent, and largely possessed of a degree of integrity. Now they're just set extras from a Conan movie. Like I said, Azz started the character assassination of the Amazons with the "sea rape & slaughter," but Finch is just running with it.

Diana has always been "the best of the Amazons," but when one is the best of crap, then the bar hasn't really been set very high, has it? I prefer my Amazons to be spirited, smart, imperfect, and capable. These Amazons are coming across as a savage herd of cattle.

Hey, you get no argument from me, buddy. I hate the New 52 Amazons with a passion.

Every word you said here is absolutely true.

And the Finches aren't really running with the Amazon's savagery. They're addressing it. Far more thoroughly than Azz did, IMO. They are acknowledging that the Amazons are stupid and savage, and they didn't want to just say that Diana was able to fix them with one little speech.

As I said, I'm betting that the goal of this story is to further the Amazons along on their path toward redemption. But the Amazons aren't going to just drop their savage ways simply because Diana tells them too. It's going to take time to get them to come around.

Now, should it be this way? No. Of course not. The Amazons should've been allowed to be the noble, compassionate women they've always been. But they aren't, and it makes no sense for them to become that way overnight.

[Lax]

It's actually that "one law" that she's criticizing him for, right? She asks "How many lives have been lost in Gotham because of that higher standard you hold yourself to"? In other words, Batman has "blood on his hands" because he refuses to kill his villains but instead allows them to live on to kill more innocents. It's not really the kind of argument I love to see her making.

She said that in response to Batman's statement that "it's blood is on her hands" if it died. He made it a point to tell her that as if it dying is some kind of tragedy. It killed thousands of people and was likely planning to kill more. He called his position the "higher standard" which was claiming moral superiority.

Her point was that if her method has the flaw of an evil creature dying, his method has the flaw of innocent people dying. One feels their "responsibility" is to a "higher standard", the other feels it's to "save lives".

Pacifism is an even higher moral standard but if he adopted that he wouldn't be able to use violence in the fight against evil, thus he rejects pacifism to "save lives".

[Silvanus]

She said that in response to Batman's statement that "it's blood is on her hands" if it died. He made it a point to tell her that as if it dying is some kind of tragedy. It killed thousands of people and was likely planning to kill more. He called his position the "higher standard" which was claiming moral superiority.

Her point was that if her method has the flaw of an evil creature dying, his method has the flaw of innocent people dying. One feels their "responsibility" is to a "higher standard", the other feels it's to "save lives".

Pacifism is an even higher moral standard but if he adopted that he wouldn't be able to use violence in the fight against evil, thus he rejects pacifism to "save lives".

No question Batman was on a moral high horse--as we tend to expect, right? It would bug me more if I cared more about Batman.

At the same time, in the context of this issue, he's not necessarily pushing his absolutist "no killing EVER" code on her--he's confronting her for being ready to kill not only without legal sanction but without hesitation, without talking first, without necessity, and apparently without regret. That's a pretty low standard--much lower than we expect of police officers, for example--and it shouldn't be Wonder Woman's "method." If it became her method, the "tragedy" would not be the loss of the monster's life; it would be the loss of Wonder Woman's integrity. Her reasoning sounds too much like Ares'.

Like Ares, Finch's Wonder Woman seems to believe that it's the warrior's--or superhero's--responsibility to kill dangerous foes. This is a philosophy that Azz's Diana rejected, and I think it should stay rejected.

Granted, Wonder Woman's concern isn't just revenge against her, but the murder of innocents. But in a sense, maybe her standard is too high. She's suggesting that Batman is responsible for the actions of those he didn't kill, as if it's his duty to decide who should live and who should die. But, except in the most extreme circumstances and under the most dire necessity, I don't think it's his role or her role, just as it isn't a police officer's role, to make those decisions or shoulder that responsibility. Even though she's a god, she shouldn't "play God" in that sense.

[Mel Dyer]

Help me out with something, amigos...

In interviews, the Finches mentioned Hekate, a mysterious, new arch-nemesis for Diana, new cast members; I am confused. Is Hekate the new, mysterious arch-nemesis, and is she anywhere in this issue? What about the insect woman? Who is she? Is she the new arch-nemesis, and is she called 'Formicida', anywhere in the issue?

I get that Donna is some kind of evil, younger twin. Does this issue get into why she's named 'Donna Troy'? Has she lived before, or is he a new creation, conjured by Hekate?

[HsssH]

Azz never really showed Amazons as stupid or savage. Only negative thing was sex raids which happened once in a generation. That doesn't automatically make them savages or idiots. This mean that their culture has some questionable traditions (basically every culture has them, just not as explicit as here, but then, sometimes thats the point of fiction - make things explicit that are problematic in real world too) that maybe should be dealt with which was exactly the point of Wonder Woman becoming their queen and leading them into better tomorrow.

Its important to understand that current generation of Amazons (Diana's generation) weren't even aware of sex raids (no reason to think that everyone knows about this but queen's daughter) before Wonder Woman exposed the truth with bringing back their "brothers". Diana saying that they won't do sex raids any more wouldn't have any negative reaction from them because:
a) They never participated in sex raids.
b) They never knew that they are supposed to participate in them.

But yet now they are very resistant to change because... reasons. They are also savage suddenly despite living all their lives in isolation and never assaulting anyone.

[Mel Dyer]

I am trying to decide, whether or not I should change my mind about buying this issue. While I would like to see some hint that WW still has a supporting cast, I can forgive a temporary focus, exclusively on building Diana's rogues' gallery, ..if that is what's going on here. So, I have a few questions, and here they are:

1) Is Hekate the new, mysterious arch-nemesis (mentioned in inetrviews), and is she anywhere in this issue?
2) Is the insect woman, the new arch-nemesis, and is she called 'Formicida', anywhere in the issue?
3) Is Donna some kind of evil, younger twin of Diana?
4) Does this issue get into why she's named 'Donna Troy'?
5) Has Donna lived before, or is she a new creation, conjured by Hekate?

[MarvelMaster616]

Loved this issue. It definitely played up the drama, having Diana see a vision of her mother again. And I like how Finch is exploring the cultural conflicts with the Amazons, dealing with all the male children that they threw away. Diana's heart is in the right place. She's trying to bridge the divide. But some cultures are painfully slow when it comes to change. The creation of Donna Troy might be symbolic of that. She can be to the Amazons the kind of hardliner that certain Amazons seek. While I was disappointed that she didn't get more face time, I like that this conflict is being built up and fleshed out. I think it makes for a better story in the end.

And having Wonder Woman call out Batman for not taking care of his villains was just too perfect. She's right too. She's probably the only one in Justice League who isn't afraid to deal with her villains harshly and accept the consequences. That just adds to her awesome.

[Vanguard-01]

Azz never really showed Amazons as stupid or savage. Only negative thing was sex raids which happened once in a generation. That doesn't automatically make them savages or idiots. This mean that their culture has some questionable traditions (basically every culture has them, just not as explicit as here, but then, sometimes thats the point of fiction - make things explicit that are problematic in real world too) that maybe should be dealt with which was exactly the point of Wonder Woman becoming their queen and leading them into better tomorrow.

Its important to understand that current generation of Amazons (Diana's generation) weren't even aware of sex raids (no reason to think that everyone knows about this but queen's daughter) before Wonder Woman exposed the truth with bringing back their "brothers". Diana saying that they won't do sex raids any more wouldn't have any negative reaction from them because:
a) They never participated in sex raids.
b) They never knew that they are supposed to participate in them.

But yet now they are very resistant to change because... reasons. They are also savage suddenly despite living all their lives in isolation and never assaulting anyone.

He showed them as primitives who never conceived an original thought in 3000 years. They did not advance one inch in technology or as a culture since the Bronze Age.

He showed them as violent savages who assault each other for being different, and were never seen using anything other than violence to solve their problems.

He showed them as believing themselves to be the strongest, most perfect culture in the world and believing that the outside world had nothing to offer them except for convenient male victims during the sex raids.

The younger generations never participated in the sex raids. They were, however, raised and indoctrinated into Amazon culture and molded into the kind of people who would be A-Okay with the sex raids because "It's our tradition, and out traditions are never wrong." They have also been fully indoctrinated into the belief that the outside world has nothing to offer the Amazons, so Diana's effort to bring in outside ideas and attempt to encourage the Amazons to actually move forward for the first time in 3000 will seem just as wrong and unacceptable to them as it does to the older Amazon generations.

Face facts. If Azz wanted to establish the Amazons as an advanced society of actually civilized women, then he did a poor job of it. He showed us nothing but savagery, brutality, paranoia, and a love for violence from them. He showed us no art, no philosophy, no advanced ideas of any kind. Just an island of brutal thugs who are actively hostile toward the one Amazon who isn't okay with the way things are.

[brettc1]

Wow is right. 5 minutes and 16 seconds to read this. That's a new record.

Geez, these super-heroes are completely useless. Thank god they are fictional - their world makes our look like a Garden of Eden.

Just have her fly to Gotham and kill the Joker and make the ruination of Wonder Woman complete. Why drag it out any more?