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  1. #3646
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Agreed. Comics and movies are very different mediums. What you can get away with in comics you can't get away with in movies. Comics get oversaturated with "mind-controlled Superman"? Okay, but there's another story right around the corner, at the very most in a month's time, at the very least one week, that won't feature it. And they're virtually everlasting as at least in Superman's case he always has at least one comic going at all times. Not only was this planned as a finite movie saga of four films, said films take a long time to come out. So moviegoers are left a few years with this evil Superman in the conscious mind until its resolved, and that's right alongside with dealing with a polarizing characterization of him in the previous films BEFORE he went bad. Its too much.

    And I liked MOS so I was very much on board with things at the start. Judging off MOS alone I was a big Snyder defender. But if this was the plan all along and not a course-correction as I originally thought BvS to be, then all these revelations of what would have been just tell me that WB and Snyder indeed had no clue about the character from the get-go. You don't reintroduce Superman to a generation by giving him an origin story, promptly killing him off, then resurrecting him as the big bad before his weak-willed ass is saved by his girlfriend.
    I know. Comic book fans bitch and moan about this stuff, but we are always willing to come back once a new creative team comes on board that "agrees with us." The general audience is much harder to convince to come back once they decide they don't like something. It is in no way comparable, and just because the comics do it, that doesn't mean it's in any way a good idea to follow the same route.

  2. #3647
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It may have killed it for moviegoers, who are not comic fans, and that's a far bigger and more damaging issue.
    If you look at comparative box office numbers with BvS and JL, what we got so far already killed it for moviegoers. If what's suggested is really what the plan was, it would kill thoughts of overall DC movies "Batman and Robin" level for possibly as long as a generation.

    When coupled with the fact that DCEU Superman has been underdeveloped and divisive already, this would have been a shitshow. Whatever goodwill and potential was left over from MOS was squandered in BvS, particularly the theatrical cut. Undoing it in the same film (or the next one) would still just mean more precious screen time being used to make Cavill scowl. Screw that noise.

    I can't believe we have to look at JL as the lesser of two evils now. What have things come to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Agreed. Comics and movies are very different mediums. What you can get away with in comics you can't get away with in movies. Comics get oversaturated with "mind-controlled Superman"? Okay, but there's another story right around the corner, at the very most in a month's time, at the very least one week, that won't feature it. And they're virtually everlasting as at least in Superman's case he always has at least one comic going at all times. Not only was this planned as a finite movie saga of four films, said films take a long time to come out. So moviegoers are left a few years with this evil Superman in the conscious mind until its resolved, and that's right alongside with dealing with a polarizing characterization of him in the previous films BEFORE he went bad. Its too much.

    And I liked MOS so I was very much on board with things at the start. Judging off MOS alone I was a big Snyder defender. But if this was the plan all along and not a course-correction as I originally thought BvS to be, then all these revelations of what would have been just tell me that WB and Snyder indeed had no clue about the character from the get-go.
    And I was sick to my stomach for a week after MoS (and, again if this is to be taken as understood so far, my gut instinct more right than I even thought it was). I can't imagine how pissed I'd be to see all that.
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  3. #3648
    Incredible Member RepHope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Agreed. Comics and movies are very different mediums. What you can get away with in comics you can't get away with in movies. Comics get oversaturated with "mind-controlled Superman"? Okay, but there's another story right around the corner, at the very most in a month's time, at the very least one week, that won't feature it. And they're virtually everlasting as at least in Superman's case he always has at least one comic going at all times. Not only was this planned as a finite movie saga of four films, said films take a long time to come out. So moviegoers are left a few years with this evil Superman in the conscious mind until its resolved, and that's right alongside with dealing with a polarizing characterization of him in the previous films BEFORE he went bad. Its too much.

    And I liked MOS so I was very much on board with things at the start. Judging off MOS alone I was a big Snyder defender. But if this was the plan all along and not a course-correction as I originally thought BvS to be, then all these revelations of what would have been just tell me that WB and Snyder indeed had no clue about the character from the get-go. You don't reintroduce Superman to a generation by giving him an origin story, promptly killing him off, then resurrecting him as the big bad before his weak-willed ass is saved by his girlfriend.
    God #%^* that “Lois is a magical plot device you can kill to make Supes evil because how could an alien god ever empathize with puny humans?” crap Snyder was high on. What a godawful characterization of Clark. Snyder does not understand the character at all. Making Lois “his world” was so idiotic and just wrong.

  4. #3649
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    it doesn't do much for Lois either if she's just the plot device that hangs around to save her man.

  5. #3650
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    There is always the chance of seeing a mind-controlled Superman down the line.

    Snyder's original plan for the final chapters (JL2 and ?) of his pentalogy was scrapped because someone at WB thought to postpone Darkseid, so Whedon has cut from JL1 the references to the Apokolips tyrant and the Knigtmare future (Cyborg having a vision of it and Batman talking about his previous vision to the team) and added the bit of Lex wanting to form a League of his own to set the LOD as the upcoming threat instead of Darkseid.

    But when WB decides to finally use Darkseid, he may try to corrupt our hero. Maybe they'll not recycle Snyder's idea point by point, but you never know.
    Last edited by Last Son of Krypton; 05-21-2018 at 09:14 PM.

  6. #3651
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    One wonders if bringing INJUSTICE Superman onto the big screen was a WB thing before the changes behind the scenes or if it was all Snyder. Either way...whomever pushed this idea, there is no defending that. I still think MOS and BvS were unfairly maligned , but if indeed that was the ultimate direction and end game, perhaps its for the best things happened as they did with JL.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  7. #3652
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    Quote Originally Posted by RepHope View Post
    God #%^* that “Lois is a magical plot device you can kill to make Supes evil because how could an alien god ever empathize with puny humans?” crap Snyder was high on. What a godawful characterization of Clark. Snyder does not understand the character at all. Making Lois “his world” was so idiotic and just wrong.
    That is not what that line means. What it means is not that Clark is incapable of empathy (we're talking about a man who stood up for a woman being sexually harassed when no one else would and was the only one in metropolis who gave a crap about Batman's human rights abuses) it's that having someone to come home to also makes the heroics he performs day in and day out worth it as well. It has nothing to do with him not empathizing with people.

  8. #3653
    Incredible Member Krypto's Fleas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Agreed. Comics and movies are very different mediums. What you can get away with in comics you can't get away with in movies. Comics get oversaturated with "mind-controlled Superman"? Okay, but there's another story right around the corner, at the very most in a month's time, at the very least one week, that won't feature it. And they're virtually everlasting as at least in Superman's case he always has at least one comic going at all times. Not only was this planned as a finite movie saga of four films, said films take a long time to come out. So moviegoers are left a few years with this evil Superman in the conscious mind until its resolved, and that's right alongside with dealing with a polarizing characterization of him in the previous films BEFORE he went bad. Its too much.

    And I liked MOS so I was very much on board with things at the start. Judging off MOS alone I was a big Snyder defender. But if this was the plan all along and not a course-correction as I originally thought BvS to be, then all these revelations of what would have been just tell me that WB and Snyder indeed had no clue about the character from the get-go. You don't reintroduce Superman to a generation by giving him an origin story, promptly killing him off, then resurrecting him as the big bad before his weak-willed ass is saved by his girlfriend.
    Bravo. You summed up my sentiments way better than I could have. I didn't flinch at a single point.

  9. #3654
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    One wonders if bringing INJUSTICE Superman onto the big screen was a WB thing before the changes behind the scenes or if it was all Snyder. Either way...whomever pushed this idea, there is no defending that. I still think MOS and BvS were unfairly maligned , but if indeed that was the ultimate direction and end game, perhaps its for the best things happened as they did with JL.
    Sadly, Superman becoming "evil"/brainwashed is like the Death of Superman: a popular/recurring idea just waiting to be adapted. Snyder had his reasons for wanting to bring these storylines to the big screen, but he certainly wasn't the first to want to do them, nor the last one.

  10. #3655
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    If they were going to do the whole "evil mind-controlled" Superman bit, which George Miller's Justice League Mortal was also going to use, they should have done it in BvS where it might have made the story make more sense.

    Had Luthor managed to synthesize mind-altering version Kryptonite from the sample he had before Batman stole it, he could have warped Superman into someone who was actually willing to fight Batman. This would have given their fight some real stakes because the audience wouldn't have been sure what was going to happen. Or, they could have foreshadowed the Apokalipis invasion by having Luthor mentally manipulating both Batman's paranoia and Superman's anger with mysterious alien tech.

    However, stretching evil Superman out across multiple film before truly establishing him as the beloved World's Greatest Superhero that most people are familiar was a fool's errand and it's ridiculous that neither Diane Nelson nor Geoff Johns were able to convince WB to not pursue this angle.

  11. #3656
    Mighty Member Lokimaru's Avatar
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    First of all he wasn't doing Injustice just homaging it like he homaged Dark Knight Returns and other stories. What's the point of having Flash go back in time if nothing changes? Would Superman be Evil in the Knightmare time Yes but he wouldn't be evil in the present cause the Timeline changed creating TWO Supermen giving them the chance to eventually throw down like in Injustice. I swear you guys are way too precious with these characters. Too much Plot Armor spoils the character.

  12. #3657
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Injustice,TDKR and Flashpoint are all "elseworld" stories, they were a hit because they were "new" compare to the mainstream story. It's not good to use them when the mainstream JL has not been built yet.

    Zack Snyder obviously is a big fan of Superman and tried to make him the center of his movies, but he was trying too hard to make a "Passion of the Christ" than the Superman ppl want to see, I mean both a lot of fans and the general audience. To me, the worst part is the characterization of Jonathan Kent, the man who was meant to make Superman a good person and encourage him to use his power for good purpose.

    The best thing is the action scenes and the villain's characterization from MoS. Zod was a understandable, even sympathetic Kryptonian, Faora was awesome.

  13. #3658
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    First of all he wasn't doing Injustice just homaging it like he homaged Dark Knight Returns and other stories. What's the point of having Flash go back in time if nothing changes? Would Superman be Evil in the Knightmare time Yes but he wouldn't be evil in the present cause the Timeline changed creating TWO Supermen giving them the chance to eventually throw down like in Injustice. I swear you guys are way too precious with these characters. Too much Plot Armor spoils the character.
    Trying to keep the characters true to what made people fans of them to begin with is not "plot armor". Relaunching Superman with homages to Superman Elseworlds stories that ran contrary to the kind of Superman that appealed to people is never a smart idea if they want to appeal to a large audience.

    It would be like if they relaunched Batman by heavily adapting Sean Murphy's White Knight stories and acting surprised when Bat-fans flip out.

    I would love to see an adaptation of Red Son, for instance, but that story only works in contrast to the traditional Superman, who WB has thus far failed to relaunch for modern mainstream audiences twice already. Until they they manage that, it might be best to steer clear of the off-model interpretations for a bit.

    That said, I thought that Batman was well-established enough in the public consciousness that audiences would be ready for an older grizzled Dark Knight Returns-styled Batman, but clearly that didn't work out either. Perhaps had Snyder nailed the brightness of Superman, then the contrast would have made audiences more receptive to it, but since Snyder also went dark with Supes, the entire story was just a gloomy slog for most people expecting a fun popcorn flick in which two guys in tights and capes hit each other.

  14. #3659
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    To be honest, one of the things i liked about BvS ( particularly the ultimate edition) is that it wasn't a light popcorn flick of two guys in tights hitting each other, and it tried to do something different than what I was expecting. It was trying to say something about these characters and instead of doing what everyone expected, it was ambitious enough to swing for the fences. On its own and separated from the egos involved and the aftermath, i still rate the ultimate cut as one of the better superhero movies ever made and is easily my third favorite live action Superman movie ( behind The Donner film and MOS. )

    Having said that, i know I'm in the minority on that. The public wanted a fun popcorn fluff pic, didn't get that, and revolted, resulting in the film underperforming to the point that when WB gave the public the fun popcorn pic it wanted with BvS in JL, many stayed away.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  15. #3660
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    These movies are expensive as hell to make and need to appeal to as wide an audience as possible. It COULD have worked if it was done more competently, but it wasn't. Deconstructing Superman when you didn t properly finish establishing the new version is a bad business decision.

    Waiting two films for a fully formed Superman is one thing. Having to wait four is goddamn lunacy, especially when he has to share screen time with guest stars.

    You make the money and build trust, THEN start experimenting. The whole "DC is copying Marvel" complaints were annoying, but Wonder Woman showed that that wouldn't have mattered all that much in the end.

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