DC Speculation -- how will layoffs affect the Bat books?

[Rise]

Eh, to me Bruce being a jerk to the Batfamily screams of pandering towards Batfam fans. Most writers are no doubt aware of the massive hate the fan base has towards Bruce and make him a dick on purpose so the Batfamily members look more sympathetic. They never come out looking bad when he's being a dick to them, he's the only one who comes out of those encounters worse for wear.

It's like they use him as the big bad to galvanize the Batfamily fans, they all have an obstacle to overcome and persevere against.

And it's ironic to hear how Bruce is supposedly written "like a high schooler's idea of what cool looks like" when some of the Batfamily are written in ways that scream "how do you do fellow kids, aren't these guys hip!" We gonna act like Jason Todd isn't every Edgelord teenage boy's angsty fantasy come true? Guns? Check. Willing to kill? Check. Tragic backstory? Check. Parental figure he doesn't get along with? Check. He ticks all the boxes a kid who "isn't going through a phase mom!" would love.

And then there's Dick, hey kids, this guy's younger and cooler than Bruce, EVERYBODY looooves him, he's the bestest leader ever, OMG look at his ass tee-hee, such a ladies man, super cool flipz and quipz, etc. I love him but yeah, it's pretty heavy handed.

Like, c'mon Bruce is probably the Batfamily they try the least to make seem cool.

Man, do I hate the victim mentality and the childish "NO! It's the other side who is wrong!".

I'm not rooting for either Batman or his batfamily because as I said multiple times already, these characters are nothing but tools for entertainment to me. I like both Bruce and Jason equally (and no, I'm not some edgy teenger who thinks gunz are coolz), but that doesn't mean I'm blind to their faults or think there's soms kinda of agenda or "pandering" going on here. After all, no Jason fan was happy over what happened between Batman and him so tell me again how this is pandering?

I prefer characters to make mistakes and learn, I don't like when they act bad just for the sake of cheap drama and when their actions have no consequences.

[DurararaFTW]

Eh, to me Bruce being a jerk to the Batfamily screams of pandering towards Batfam fans. Most writers are no doubt aware of the massive hate the fan base has towards Bruce and make him a dick on purpose so the Batfamily members look more sympathetic. They never come out looking bad when he's being a dick to them, he's the only one who comes out of those encounters worse for wear.

It's like they use him as the big bad to galvanize the Batfamily fans, they all have an obstacle to overcome and persevere against.

And it's ironic to hear how Bruce is supposedly written "like a high schooler's idea of what cool looks like" when some of the Batfamily are written in ways that scream "how do you do fellow kids, aren't these guys hip!" We gonna act like Jason Todd isn't every Edgelord teenage boy's angsty fantasy come true? Guns? Check. Willing to kill? Check. Tragic backstory? Check. Parental figure he doesn't get along with? Check. He ticks all the boxes a kid who "isn't going through a phase mom!" would love.

And then there's Dick, hey kids, this guy's younger and cooler than Bruce, EVERYBODY looooves him, he's the bestest leader ever, OMG look at his ass tee-hee, such a ladies man, super cool flipz and quipz, etc. I love him but yeah, it's pretty heavy handed.

Like, c'mon Bruce is probably the Batfamily they try the least to make seem cool.

Yeah that's why House is by far the least popular character in House MD, and Walter White in Breaking Bad, or Tony Soprano or Don Draper, nobody likes jerks who get by because they are the best at their job, nobody.

[The True Detective]

Yeah that's why House is by far the least popular character in House MD, and Walter White in Breaking Bad, or Tony Soprano or Don Draper, nobody likes jerks who get by because they are the best at their job, nobody.

So...why do so many people hate Bruce so much? It's not because they think he's such a nice warm and fuzzy guy, how many threads have thread been complaining about him being a dick?

[Zaresh]

Man, do I hate the victim mentality and the childish "NO! It's the other side who is wrong!".

I'm not rooting for either Batman or his batfamily because as I said multiple times already, these characters are nothing but tools for entertainment to me. I like both Bruce and Jason equally (and no, I'm not some edgy teenger who thinks gunz are coolz), but that doesn't mean I'm blind to their faults or think there's soms kinda of agenda or "pandering" going on here. After all, no Jason fan was happy over what happened between Batman and him so tell me again how this is pandering?

I prefer characters to make mistakes and learn, I don't like when they act bad just for the sake of cheap drama and when their actions have no consequences.

I honestly think this is how many of us feel about the whole thing, actually.

I also want to mention that Bruce started to become Batjerk not because the batfam, but because the fandom as a whole readership liked it. They liked the dark, stark, lone soldier with poor social skills and an attsitude toward those who tried to be close. And this happened in his own book. And Dick, Tim or Babs had nothing to do with it. Or their fans at the time.

I honestly loved Batman in the 80s and in the animated series. He shoudln't have gone farher than that. Nowadays, I rarely find myself enjoying what he does in any book. Or empathizing with him. And that's how it is because readers (and so, editorial: this is business) liked it. I also blame writers not thinking the consequences of their stories enough, too

[DurararaFTW]

So...why do so many people hate Bruce so much? It's not because they think he's such a nice warm and fuzzy guy, how many threads have thread been complaining about him being a dick?

Have you looked at the sales? You are choosing to see the vocal minority only. People complain about jerks, also, bad boys do sell.

[Bat-Meal]

So...why do so many people hate Bruce so much?

Can't speak for others, but I don't hate him, I'm just bored with him. I've watched nearly all of the (live action) Batman films, and played most of the videogames, and now I'm more into Batwoman instead. She's different enough to interest me, but similar enough that I get my bat-fandom kick.

[Korath]

So...why do so many people hate Bruce so much? It's not because they think he's such a nice warm and fuzzy guy, how many threads have thread been complaining about him being a dick?

That's because while he is an asshole, he doesn't really have circumstances which can make it more acceptable. I mean, House's a dick but he IS super-competent and can heal cases which are deemed lost by everyone. Batman, by virtue of being in a comics, can't solve crime in Gotham, in fact it keeps getting worst. And to add insult to injury, writers keep adding circumstances which makes him look awful. Like King having him enjoying his time on a beach with Selina while Gotham was under the control of Thomas Wayne (with Bane as his puppet of sort) and Alfred died. After revealing that punching people was a form of communication for him - and that he sent his 13 y.o. boy alone in a city patrolled by a super-being, an army of villain and his alternate-universe father. What could go wrong, right ?

But I'm not HAPPY dishing on Bruce. I love(d) Batman. He was - he even still is, in a sense - my favorite hero. BTAS is still a masterpiece and I can enjoy him a lot in many alternate universe tales. But the MU is just toxic masculinity 101 nowadays, and that's a problem.

How the hell am I supposed to root for that guy when it comes to stop his son from killing criminals to prevent more bloodshed when he had secret-prisons, led to a multiversal crisis because of his paranoia and left his son totally unchecked for years in comics ?

Is he truly the one best suited to barge in and says to the Teen Titans that they are disbanded ? That Jason is wrong to try and get revenge on the man who had his father killed (Penguin) ? Or himself (Joker) ?

I mean, there is something deeply wrong with Batman when the relationship between Red Hood and Bizarro is warmer and more father/son-like than the one between Batman and Robin...

[The True Detective]

Have you looked at the sales? You are choosing to see the vocal minority only. People complain about jerks, also, bad boys do sell.

But if the writers are writing him a certain way they aren't trying to make him cool, they're writing him the way fans want him to be. Gal Gadot's portrayal of Wonder Woman is very popular, if she acts the same way in Wonder Woman 1984 does that mean the writers are trying to make her cool? No, of course it doesn't.

IMO Dick and Jason are written in a way that comes off as the writers trying hard to get readers to see them as cool. And even if it's true Bruce is written to be cool in someway it doesn't mean the other Batfamily members aren't also written in the same mindset.

I just fail to see how him being an asshole to his kids is supposed to make us like him, vocal minority or not a lot of people have said they stopped reading his books because the way he treats his family. The Batfamily gets the added boost of reader sympathy and Bruce hatred while Bruce gets nothing. Whether the writers purposefully make him a dick to boost the Batfamily or not's irrelvant they always come out of the encounters looking better.

[DurararaFTW]

But if the writers are writing him a certain way they aren't trying to make him cool, they're writing him the way fans want him to be. Gal Gadot's portrayal of Wonder Woman is very popular, if she acts the same way in Wonder Woman 1984 does that mean the writers are trying to make her cool? No, of course it doesn't.

IMO Dick and Jason are written in a way that comes off as the writers trying hard to get readers to see them as cool. And even if it's true Bruce is written to be cool in someway it doesn't mean the other Batfamily members aren't also written in the same mindset.

I just fail to see how him being an asshole to his kids is supposed to make us like him, vocal minority or not a lot of people have said they stopped reading his books because the way he treats his family. The Batfamily gets the added boost of reader sympathy and Bruce hatred while Bruce gets nothing. Whether the writers purposefully make him a dick to boost the Batfamily or not's irrelvant they always come out of the encounters looking better.

Better and more sympathetic are not synonyms. In City of Bane Batman is written as keeping his family at a distance, while they are just trying to help. Nightwing, Red Hood and Robin are written more sympathetically. But the comic book ends with Bane having defeated them off panel, strung them up for Batman to find, who puts them in pods where they can't get themselves killed again while he takes on Bane, a fight that is not deemed so unimportant to be off panel. You will not see this kind of situation reversed any time soon. Batman is the main character and perspective of Batman stories, where Nightwing, Red Hood and Robin appear in. Batman comes off as better and more capable, if flawed.

In Red Hood and the Outlaws Jason is the main character and perspective and we experience the strained relationship with Batman from his end, there yes, Batman plays an antagonistic role. Jason needs to be both a hero but also an outlaw respective of the rest of the superhero community, represented in the character that the most people will buy a comic if he appears in it: Batman. It's similiar with Damian.

[Konja7]

Man, do I hate the victim mentality and the childish "NO! It's the other side who is wrong!".

I'm not rooting for either Batman or his batfamily because as I said multiple times already, these characters are nothing but tools for entertainment to me. I like both Bruce and Jason equally (and no, I'm not some edgy teenger who thinks gunz are coolz), but that doesn't mean I'm blind to their faults or think there's soms kinda of agenda or "pandering" going on here. After all, no Jason fan was happy over what happened between Batman and him so tell me again how this is pandering?

I prefer characters to make mistakes and learn, I don't like when they act bad just for the sake of cheap drama and when their actions have no consequences.

Maybe you don't like it, but Bruce savagely beating Jason was a way to make Jason sympathetic at the expense of Bruce.

Bat-family being sympathetic or cool at the expense of Bruce being a jerk has happened in almost every comic where a Bat-family is the main. This isn't new either, I think this happened in Tim's Robin solo and Cassandra's Batgirl solo too.

To be fair, this also happened because they think Bruce is that kind of guy. They wouldn't do Superman a big jerk (intentionally) to make a Super-family member sympathetic.

That's why this happened in Batman comic too, but there is make to characterize Bruce.

[Rise]

Why would the writer need to do that exactly? Everyone who read his book already like Jason and sympathy with him. Lobdell didn't do to make us "sympathy" with Jason (which is pretty stupid way to look at it, no offense), he did it to create conflict between the two (basically drama) and a reason for Jason to leave Gotham.

[Konja7]

Why would the writer need to do that exactly? Everyone who read his book already like Jason and sympathy with him. Lobdell didn't do to make us "sympathy" with Jason (which is pretty stupid way to look at it, no offense), he did it to create conflict between the two (basically drama) and a reason for Jason to leave Gotham.

Yeah. Lobdell did it to create drama.

That doesn't change the fact that Jason was the sympathetic there, while Bruce was the big jerk.

After all, Jason fans stil complain about Bruce's behavior at that moment and want Bruce to apologize, which is unlikely to happen (since other writers seem to just ignore what Lobdell wrote).

[Rise]

Well, duh. Of course Jason fans will take his side regardless excatly like I have seen Batman fans take his side and thought that Jason totally deserve it for breaking his rules (as for me, I simply rolled my eyes and thought both characters looked bad). This always, always happen when two characters have a conflict in every fandom.

Saying that writers do it to make Batman looks bad and generate sympathy for x batfamily character is what I call stupid and overreaction. Writers do it for drama and that's it.

[Korath]

Yeah. Lobdell did it to create drama.

That doesn't change the fact that Jason was the sympathetic there, while Bruce was the big jerk.

After all, Jason fans stil complain about Bruce's behavior at that moment and want Bruce to apologize, which is unlikely to happen (since other writers seem to just ignore what Lobdell wrote).

The problem is that Batman beating Jason to a bloody pulp is actually in character for modern Batman.

It isn't normal; especially with Jason whom he should sees as his greatest failure (his own, not Jason, by the way) which happened because he couldn't learn in time how to truly communicate and bond with Jay. I'm not saying that he should be okay with everything Jason does but if you want an actual good Batman and Red Hood antagonistic interaction, Event Leviathan is far better, with Bruce clearly sad about Jason being Leviathan (since he was sure he was). He didn't jump at him just to pummel it. He offered sincere condolences and it felt genuine. There was respect and a true sense of sorrow in their interaction, on both part. You could see how both of them felt bad about what was about to happen but also felt it was unavoidable and even necessary. Neither of them looked bad here at least not as human beings.

The same goes for Damian being left alone and totally unsupervised, except when Batman gets to bark at him. It shouldn't be in-character for him. I'm not saying that he should express his feelings like a perfect father, World's n°1 or something. But he should at least seems to have feelings! And it ins't obvious at all. I mean, for fuck sake, he seems more attached to Jarro in Death Metal than to ANY other Batfamily member in the main books save B&R during New 52. It shouldn't take Damian dying for us to see how much Batman cares for him.

It shouldn't be normal that the undertone of King's run that Damian's a mutt Bruce got dropped on him and that his true family will only be with Selina and the daughter they'll have together be allowed to flourish, and yet it happened and at times I feel as if I was the only one seeing it in King's run!

The way Batman is written needs to change, and short of a hard reboot or the excision of large parts of his history, which would in truth serves no one, the character needs to be written as making amend. Batfams aren't demanding that Bruce parade around with a bell and a sign saying that he is sorry like some does about "The End is Nigh". But he needs to change willingly and openly.

He can still be the Dark Knight, grim and all, without being an asshole. He can still beat criminals like an unrelenting machine and yet stop to smile at kids and love his whole damn family. It's not mutually exclusive! But it does require the character to act in that direction nowadays, because the writing of Bruce as the Ultimate Jerk, Peak Toxic Masculinity is so ingrained nowadays that you'd rather picture Batman punching his family in the face for not obeying his codes 100% of the time than to gently explain to them why he adders to those and why they need to find their own to become healthier individuals.

And that's just sad, really.

I want Bruce as Batman to be a hero, a real one, not the piece of shit he is so often written to be even in his own books.

[SiegePerilous02]

Thank you!

Don't bitch at fans of Dick or Babs or Damian or whoever else because DC is determined to write Bruce as a psychotic bastard who is borderline abusive on his good days.

Like I said at the beginning of this conversation, most of us Bat-legacy fans are *also* fans of Batman. But instead of turning a blind eye to all the stupid sh*t DC pulls with the character, we call them out on it.

I'm a bigger fan of Nightwing than I am of Batman but that doesn't mean I don't like Batman. I do. What I don't like is how DC writes Bruce as this intolerant douchebag who seemingly considers the kids he decided to raise as little more than soldiers, who acts like a complete asshat to his family, friends, and co-workers, and then gets to stomp all over every other character in the DCU because he sells more comics.

Nobody here wants Superman to fly into Gotham, kick Bruce out of the Cave, derail Bruce's story, and fix all of Gotham's problems while Bruce talks about how golly keen Superman is and how nobody else could do what he does and how Bruce is so lucky Superman showed up to save the day. Nobody wants to see Bruce get disrespected like that or written like such a doormat. But this is what happens to every other character in the DCU, and the Bat legacies more than anyone else. That's not Bruce's fault because Bruce isn't real, but it's annoying as f*ck if you happen to be a fan of anybody else.

Batman used to be a fantastic character full of pathos, who fought through his own pain to be not only a better man, but to inspire others to be better. He was the kind of guy you could imagine a little kid looking up to and feeling safe with. Now even his own kids aren't safe with him. Gee, I wonder why people have such a problem with how DC handles Bruce these days?

If DC wanted Bruce to be this broody, angst-filled shell of a person ripped straight from Frank Millar's wet dreams, they shouldn't keep adding kids to his household. Or, alternatively, they could start writing Bruce as a person again, and less like a high schooler's idea of what "cool" looks like. Bronze Age Batman was best Batman.

Preach.

So...why do so many people hate Bruce so much? It's not because they think he's such a nice warm and fuzzy guy, how many threads have thread been complaining about him being a dick?

As has been said, most of us don't have Batman. He's not real, and there isn't any one version of him. I won't let DC/WB's screw ups ruin Batman for me over all since I've loved him since I was like 5 years old and watching BTAS for the first time, but not everyone is obligated to live all versions of a character just because they are fans of them as an icon. He's been around a LONG time with a lot of different creators. The version they push currently, and unfortunately seems go over well with a lot of audiences, is just an uber dark, boring, all powerful and violent man child most of the time. I would cheer if versions based on Adam West, DCAU or the Bronze Age kicked his ass. Hell, I was taken aback when I reach Suicide Squad: the Phoenix Gambit the other night and saw how nice he was. Which is kind of sad, I shouldn't have to be surprised when I'm reminded Batman isn't meant to be a jerk.

And your other point that they write him as a jerk to give the Bat-Family some moments...there is some truth to that, but not always. Gail Simone wrote him being called out by Canary in her BOP run for his treatment of Oracle and Huntress which happened in his books, not theirs. Barbara gave him a verbal smackdown later in the run. And it was 100% necessary, and Simone still wrote him as being more sympathetic than some other authors. Like being man enough to admit he was wrong.

Or in Miller's Steph!Batgirl series. She was 100% right to call him out on his bullshit for his tests of her after his last test, as a responsible adult, contributed to a teenage girl getting killed. And it happened in a crossover meant to drive his narrative, not hers.